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What atomizing gas to use for a diesel fired boiler light off?

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RWanke

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Even though you don't have a dive shop in your area, check your local fire department. They have to have a compressor (or some place to take them) to fill their Scott Air pacs These are basically the same as a SCUBA tank. You can get small "spare air" SCUBA tanks that hold 6 to 20 CuFt. and probably close to the 2500 lb psi of the nitrogen.
 

Cadillac

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Sure looks like a winner. The propane is definitely capable. I use propane and air for my forge. Homemade burner sounds like a jet. Have it regulated around 10 psi. A regular 20 lb tank last at least 10 or so melts a hour from start to finishes.
 

mslisaj

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Some great idea's here continue to come out of this forum. The more I work with the boiler and the steam car the better I understand it and the more confident with the systems I become. I am pleased to report that the boiler stays hot and holds pressure for a couple of hours. So if I inadvertantly extinguished the fire I still have steam for atomization and I just need a torch for the flame. So I don't have to worry about starting the fire again once the boiler is hot and has steam pressure. So I have narrowed the issue down to the true cold initial start up. Propane still seems like a very viable and cheap fuel. My next attempt at firing the boiler cold will be with propane. I do have a 30 pound bottle in case the one pounder goes away too fast but again, I'm still trying to figure out what the original intention of the little ring that is in the back of the car that holds the one pound of propane perfectly.

The "emergency scuba tank" idea is a good one and also checking with the local fire department or sheriff's dive squadron to see if they could refill my bottle. Now there may be liability issues with filling a "scuba dive" bottle being I'm not a diver but if I repainted the little nitrogen bottle "blue" that I have they may fill that as it would be too heavy to dive with and obviously be used for another purpose. That tank with 2000 pounds of air will certainly do a cold start or two. So in reality this is the fun part of experimentation with projects like this.

Thank you all for reading my forum thread and for your comments. You truly are part of solving this "mystery".

Lisa
 

FanMan

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What is actually happening here, is the steam released from the boiler and mixed with the diesel to push it through the nozzle? Sounds like a weird setup. Surprised he didn't do a setup like a home oil furnace burner, with a pump to push the fuel through an orifice, and a blower to supply combustion air. Unless he was copying some old design?

To compare, 1# of liquid propane will expand to 8.6 cubic feet of gas. A typical scuba tank holds 80 CF, almost ten times as much. Of course the scuba tank is a lot larger and heavier.
 

mslisaj

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What is actually happening here, is the steam released from the boiler and mixed with the diesel to push it through the nozzle? Sounds like a weird setup. Surprised he didn't do a setup like a home oil furnace burner, with a pump to push the fuel through an orifice, and a blower to supply combustion air. Unless he was copying some old design?
Well, old railroad locomotives for years and years used steam "atomizers" to spray the steam into the firebox. The system worked well. This car has no electrical system at all thus a "home oil furnace burner" with an electric blower setup would not work and just add to the complication of the system. Again, the system works really well as it's designed with steam, I'm just trying to come up with a simple, small way to fire the boiler at a remote location when it is cold.

Thanks for your comments "FanMan".
 

RWanke

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Luxfer sells SCUBA tanks from 6.1 cu.ft. (3.2" dia. 11.1" tall 3000psi) to 98.8 cu.ft (8" dia 26.2" tall 3300 psi) with 8 more sizes in between these. I know a full 63 cu. ft. tank use to fire a LOT of water balloons from the 2 liter bottle water balloon launchers we use to build. :grin big:
 

benmychree

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Yes, propane would work, and may be the best way except when at home and compressed air is available, it could be that the propane option was for start ups when away from home.
All this was not an issue with steam cars that were commercially made back in the day; so far as I know all the small ones and even the large Stanley cars used a burner similar to what savarin suggests above:

"What about a primus burner, an alcohol flame heating some pipework then a hand pressurised kero or maybe the diesal tank that passes through the heated pipes and converted to a gas thats ignited to heat the boiler."

All that I have ever seen have used that type of burner, a pressure fed fuel supply, a vaporizer and a grid type burner plate; The small steam cars had limited tankage for water, and using it for a steam atomizing burner would have been wasteful.
The later steam cars, the Doble for instance used a gun type burner, pressure atomizing with a blower for draft, but they were worlds away in terms of size and sophistication and complexity.
 

tomw

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Just spit balling here, but what about a small secondary boiler (maybe holding 1-2 quarts of water) heated by MAPP or propane to provide the initial atomizing steam?
 

mslisaj

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Just spit balling here, but what about a small secondary boiler (maybe holding 1-2 quarts of water) heated by MAPP or propane to provide the initial atomizing steam?
This is a good idea with a small "donky boiler" but again the idea is something very small and very portable that could go with the car alone. But your idea is a good one.
I did finally find a small propane torch valve and I put one of my air couplings on it so it will connect to the car. When I get the car out again I will try the propane and see how it works. This may do it out of the unatomized burner and it's worth a try. I'll be sure to report back on how it works with pictures.

Thanks all for the continuing idea's. I do apprecate it.
 

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If I recall correctly, the old Stanley steamers had a hand pump on them to pump up fuel pressure for cold starts, similar to pumping up the pressure on a Coleman camp stove. Maybe a pressurized fuel tank could be set up to provide enough pressure to push the fuel through the nozzle and atomize it at least until steam pressure is built up.
 

mslisaj

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If I recall correctly, the old Stanley steamers had a hand pump on them to pump up fuel pressure for cold starts, similar to pumping up the pressure on a Coleman camp stove. Maybe a pressurized fuel tank could be set up to provide enough pressure to push the fuel through the nozzle and atomize it at least until steam pressure is built up.
That's an interesting idea but this boiler has an "air" powered atomizer. The oil is gravity fed to the center nozzle and "air" is blown past in a venturi fashion drawing out the fuel and spraying it in to the firebox of the boiler. So there is no way to pressurize the fuel to spray it. Using the propane in what I call a "limp flame" mode just burning out of the atomizer may generate enough heat to boil the water and build about 10 pounds of steam pressure to switch over to steam atomization of the diesel. All good idea's but so far I'm basically down to the Initial atomization of the diesel with nitrogen which works or the propane that I still have to try.

Keep the idea's coming.
 

Downunder Bob

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Well gentlemen, while I have been out running the car and learning the boiler systems you all have been busy with idea's here. I have to say "FanMan" and Benmychree" may have hit on something - Propane. For those that have followed this thread this little car was built by a master machinist that passed away last year. All his secrets and ideas' went with him. I have been solving the mysteries and puzzles of this car, engine and boiler and one little unknown is in the two pictures here. The first one is a top down picture of a little metal ring that is about 4" in diameter that is secured in the corner of the rear of the car by a hand pump. The second picture shows a one pound can of propane that fits perfectly in this little metal ring. Also the round shape of the bottom of this one pound cylinder of propane matches perfectly to the wear pattern in the wood where it sits. Also in the picture you see a steel braded line that has my shop air fitting on the end of it (this is what I start the fire with our pressurize the system to test run the engine). But the question is............. Does a one pound cylinder of propane sit there and this steel braded line attach to the regulator of that propane bottle? Why couldn't a low flow of propane be used to atomize the diesel or maybe the boiler is initally fired with propane only to get up maybe 20 pounds of steam pressure. Then the propane fire is secured and the burner relit with diesel and steam? As I mentioned, this boiler is very basic and the systems are simple but the mystery of what sat in that little steel ring and the steel bradded line remain. So today's project is to see if propane will work. I'll report back for sure. But keep the idea's coming.

Lisa

View attachment 268647View attachment 268648
I think you've just worked it out, I'm sure you'll find that very successful, You'll also find that getting that propane bottle filled is possible almost anywhere.

What pressure does the boiler run at, and have you checked the safety valves. i'm sure you will find that a steam boiler has to be tested , certified and licensed, on a regular basis.
 

mslisaj

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I think you've just worked it out, I'm sure you'll find that very successful, You'll also find that getting that propane bottle filled is possible almost anywhere.

What pressure does the boiler run at, and have you checked the safety valves. i'm sure you will find that a steam boiler has to be tested , certified and licensed, on a regular basis.
I think the propane solution will work. Have to try it and I'm trying to figure out what the original builder had in mind with all that he put together is the task at hand.

The boiler is a water tube type with a test pressure of 300 pounds. The safety lifts at 200 and I tested it. Before I built the first fire I hydro'd the boiler to 300 pounds and all's well there. In the state of Oregon they no longer require "hobby" boilers to be certified but I am a member of the Northwest Steam Society and the Early Day Gas Engine & Tractor Association and both organizations have very strict hydro and test standards before the machine can be shown or run at any event. The State of Oregon will do test and certifications on request and I intend to have that done annually also. I have a marine Fireman/Water Tender's license and I am fully aware of the dangers here and certainly will have this boiler certified by all the listed organizations; not only for my safety but the safety of everyone else. But I appreciate the caution advice as this is dangerous stuff if you're not careful with it.

I appreciate your thoughts here "Downunder Bob".

Best regards,

Lisa
 

Downunder Bob

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I think the propane solution will work. Have to try it and I'm trying to figure out what the original builder had in mind with all that he put together is the task at hand.

The boiler is a water tube type with a test pressure of 300 pounds. The safety lifts at 200 and I tested it. Before I built the first fire I hydro'd the boiler to 300 pounds and all's well there. In the state of Oregon they no longer require "hobby" boilers to be certified but I am a member of the Northwest Steam Society and the Early Day Gas Engine & Tractor Association and both organizations have very strict hydro and test standards before the machine can be shown or run at any event. The State of Oregon will do test and certifications on request and I intend to have that done annually also. I have a marine Fireman/Water Tender's license and I am fully aware of the dangers here and certainly will have this boiler certified by all the listed organizations; not only for my safety but the safety of everyone else. But I appreciate the caution advice as this is dangerous stuff if you're not careful with it.

I appreciate your thoughts here "Downunder Bob".

Best regards,

Lisa
Looks like you've got it all covered Lisa, I'm a retired marine engineer, so thought I'd throw it in just incase.
Often on some of the larger marine boilers I worked on in the past we would have a lighting up burner that used diesel fuel with atomising air until we had about 20 psi the we'd switch to heavy fuel (heated ) and steam.

If the propane is not successful you might look at Savarin's idea of a kerosene lighting up burner based on a primus type burner, or an old fashioned plumbers blowtorch. Fairly simple to make a home made one using a bicycle pump for the air. I made one when I was about 12 to fire a hobby boiler.
 

mslisaj

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Well Downunder Bob, on some of the older ships I worked on we'd use diesel pumped by an electric powered pump to spray the diesel through the B&W burner tips and fire one boiler until we had about 50 pounds and then we would pump the heavy oil through the fuel oil heaters to get it how enough to burn then switch over to heavy oil. It was quite a process and you and I remember that. In the good old days ports would have shipside boilers to supply the steam to start the systems. But the diesel was an after thought to get underway.

I have successfully used the nitrogen to spray the diesel in my little boiler and it only takes about 10 minutes to get enough steam to switch over. But the small 30 scf bottle only holds about maybe five starts. The small two pound propane bottle fits the mounting ring that the original builder had installed in the car and I'm thinking that is what he had in mind for a cold "remote" (away from home) start. I can't wait to try it but some other projects have bumped this steam car project back in line. But I'm anxious to try it and the propane should work too and may be cleaner too.

Now on the little "primus type" burner that is a workable idea too but I would have to slip that in the firebox, light it and let it get me about 20 pounds on the gauge and then secure that burner and remove it. Then with the steam to atomize the diesel, relight the boiler on diesel and off I go. All excellent idea's and I may get to try them all and see what works best.

I so appreciate the ideas and the cautions.

Best regards,

Lisa
 

Downunder Bob

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Well Downunder Bob, on some of the older ships I worked on we'd use diesel pumped by an electric powered pump to spray the diesel through the B&W burner tips and fire one boiler until we had about 50 pounds and then we would pump the heavy oil through the fuel oil heaters to get it how enough to burn then switch over to heavy oil. It was quite a process and you and I remember that. In the good old days ports would have shipside boilers to supply the steam to start the systems. But the diesel was an after thought to get underway.

I have successfully used the nitrogen to spray the diesel in my little boiler and it only takes about 10 minutes to get enough steam to switch over. But the small 30 scf bottle only holds about maybe five starts. The small two pound propane bottle fits the mounting ring that the original builder had installed in the car and I'm thinking that is what he had in mind for a cold "remote" (away from home) start. I can't wait to try it but some other projects have bumped this steam car project back in line. But I'm anxious to try it and the propane should work too and may be cleaner too.

Now on the little "primus type" burner that is a workable idea too but I would have to slip that in the firebox, light it and let it get me about 20 pounds on the gauge and then secure that burner and remove it. Then with the steam to atomize the diesel, relight the boiler on diesel and off I go. All excellent idea's and I may get to try them all and see what works best.

I so appreciate the ideas and the cautions.

Best regards,

Lisa
Lisa were you on merchant ships or navy, I spent most of my working life on merchant ships starting as engine room hand and retiring as 1st Engineer with many hours of study in between at 3 different Uni's. My last ship was a 136,000 T crude oil carrier flying the Australian flag, owned by Shell Australia.

The thing I like about the primus type burner is all you need is some kero or even diesel would work so makes you very independent, no gas bottles to worry about.
 

mslisaj

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I did a short career back in the 70's with merchant ships but it was tough for a woman in the engineering department. But I had the education and could do the job and that's all that mattered. After I retired I volunteered on a retired Liberty ship and that brought me back to my roots doing a watch on the plates there. All wonderful memories and now I'm taking that experience to something far simpler with this little car. But you understand where my caution comes from.

The primus type burner is very interesting and I'm going to have to work on aquiring one of those to try. As you point out being "independent" and being able to build steam with what I have on hand is important. Some friends who have steam boats start the fire on wood, but this little car doesn't have an ash pan and again carrying a supply of wood is impossible. I'll work around it and I got some great idea's from you guys. Thanks again.
 

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I'd love to see a video of it running when you get the chance.

If you can find and old style plumbers blowlamp would be very suitable, the type with a small tank and a built in pump. Or You can make a simple primus type burner. You just need a container that can hold the fuel and can be pumped up to 20 or 30 psi, a bicycle pump will do. A screw on cap for filling also for releasing air pressure when you are finished. some small bore copper tube to fashion the burner and heater section. I made one when I was a kid for the nozzle I just put a sewing pin in the end of the tube then bashed the end in with a hammer around the pin , then pulled the pin out and it worked. it would be easy to fit a proper nozzle.
 

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For the OP - is there a chance we'll get to see this project at the Great Oregon Steam-Up coming the end of July in Brooks?

Enquiring minds and all that
 

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I would also love to see it, but not planning to visit the USA in the near future, so please post some pics of it running, when you can.
 

mslisaj

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Well gentlemen thank you for your comments here. For Downunder Bob, now were talking about one of the old "plumbers torch" what I refered to them as a "blow torch". I just happen to have three of those antiques sitting on a shelf in my shop. I'll get one out and see how much trouble it would be to remove the burner and extend it away from the tank and pump. That would be a slick set up, cheap to use and small and would fit into the "trunk" of this little car. I'll work on that idea too and post pictures.

No gr8legs, I won't be making the big Brooks show this year. But that would be fun place to show it as they have a nice parade of all the tractors and steam equipment. On the video, Yes I have to do that too. The few times I have driven the car I always thought how cool it would be to get a video. But I'm always driving the car and can't film myself. But then next time I have it out I'll take a video of it steamed up, the fire going and the engine turning. I'll post a youtube link for that but that is a great idea.

.image.jpeg

Here is a picture of the boiler with a fire in it but I know you want to hear the whistle and see the smoke and steam. Next time I get the car out and fire it up I promise video.

Thanks again for the suggestions and tomorrow I will get that blow torch out and see what I can do with that. Very interesting idea.

Best regards,
Lisa
 

Downunder Bob

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Well gentlemen thank you for your comments here. For Downunder Bob, now were talking about one of the old "plumbers torch" what I refered to them as a "blow torch". I just happen to have three of those antiques sitting on a shelf in my shop. I'll get one out and see how much trouble it would be to remove the burner and extend it away from the tank and pump. That would be a slick set up, cheap to use and small and would fit into the "trunk" of this little car. I'll work on that idea too and post pictures.

No gr8legs, I won't be making the big Brooks show this year. But that would be fun place to show it as they have a nice parade of all the tractors and steam equipment. On the video, Yes I have to do that too. The few times I have driven the car I always thought how cool it would be to get a video. But I'm always driving the car and can't film myself. But then next time I have it out I'll take a video of it steamed up, the fire going and the engine turning. I'll post a youtube link for that but that is a great idea.

.View attachment 270035

Here is a picture of the boiler with a fire in it but I know you want to hear the whistle and see the smoke and steam. Next time I get the car out and fire it up I promise video.

Thanks again for the suggestions and tomorrow I will get that blow torch out and see what I can do with that. Very interesting idea.

Best regards,
Lisa
Yes plumbers blow torch, tank filled with kerosene or similar, pump it up with little hand pump. put some metho in little tray under burner and light, can use a bit of rag soaked with kero if no metho available. Pump it up and open the small regulating valve, and soon you've got a serious burner going. I'm sure they will also work on diesel. But how to get that flame into you boiler furnace?

In the above pic where the fire can be seen, is that a little door that can be opened, can you open that door and poke the blowtorch nose in through there, steam it up, remove blowtorch, close door, and light up main burner.

Can I say Lisa, it takes a brave and hardy lady to work in the engine room of a ship. The work is hard and everything is heavy, It's hot and dirty. and most of the guys that do it reckon it's not the place for a woman. I'm inclined to agree with them, although I try not to be judgemental. I always say If it floats your boat go for it.

I've only ever had one woman work on any of the ships I've been on, in the engine room that is. Had plenty in catering, even on the navigation deck and as radio operators, no problem with any of those. She was one tough cookie, great worker, swore like a trooper, but never in a nasty way, she was always friendly. always willing to do any task, was keen to learn. She was signed on as I.R. which in Australia means Integrated Rating, qualified to work on deck as AB or in engine room as engineers mate, the lifting and carrying, not the thinking.

The first day she came on board she came into the engine room to report for duty. she walked up to me. stuck her hand out and said G'day I'm Gus. I took her hand shook it and said welcome to my engine room gus. I said what are you good at, like what jobs do you prefer? She replied you mean I get to choose. I said no. But if I know what you like and what your good at, sometimes it might work out that you get a job you like, She replied I like you I think we'll get on fine, and you'll soon learn what I'm good at. Turned out she was pretty good at just about anything. I guess she felt she had to prove herself.

Some years later I bumped into her at a pub, I was studying in the local university and was there for dinner and a few drinks, she was there to meet up with friends for the evening. She came up to me and said g'day Bob. I looked at her thinking I don't know this chick, but wished I did, she realised I didn't recognise her, and started laughing, and said, It's me, Gus, you could have knocked me over with a feather, she was very cute. I had only ever seen her in torn dirty work clothes grease on her face. We laughed, had a drink together, I told her that I had enjoyed having her in my engine room , she replied it was one of the jobs she remembers best. then she joined her friends. That was about 30 years ago.
 
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mslisaj

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Yes, in that picture of the boiler with a fire in it that is the little door into the fire box. I go through there with a torch to light the boiler and service the burner. It's about a 4" by 8" opening and I can easily use a makeshift burner through that opening. Great ideas with the metho and other means to put a small fire in there to get it started.

My maritime story is rather long but I was encouraged to get a plain "seaman" certificate and I got hired. I signed on with an advance set of mechanical skills and was quickly moved to the engineering department as more of a "mechanics helper". I could do anything I was asked to do and enjoyed it. I was encouraged to train for a "FWT/Oiler" certification and that is what I did. I didn't have much trouble as I was there to do a job and did it well. Soon I was the lead FWT of the watch and had folks working for me. It was a fun part of my life and I only did it for six years. I truly enjoyed the work and there was nothing I could not do so that made me easily accepted. It was a hot and dirty job but paid well at the time and when I left I went for a better paycheck on land and never looked back.

This is what's fun about this steam car. The principals are the same and i get to use that skill set that I learned many years ago. Folks that know me were not surprised that I had this car fired up and building steam in two day. Simple stuff that I didn't have to climb a ladder to turn a valve. Gotta love that.

Thanks again for the great idea's and I can't wait to try some of them. At the moment I have some other projects that have moved forward but that is the problem with retirement - way too much to do now.
 

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Yes, in that picture of the boiler with a fire in it that is the little door into the fire box. I go through there with a torch to light the boiler and service the burner. It's about a 4" by 8" opening and I can easily use a makeshift burner through that opening. Great ideas with the metho and other means to put a small fire in there to get it started.

My maritime story is rather long but I was encouraged to get a plain "seaman" certificate and I got hired. I signed on with an advance set of mechanical skills and was quickly moved to the engineering department as more of a "mechanics helper". I could do anything I was asked to do and enjoyed it. I was encouraged to train for a "FWT/Oiler" certification and that is what I did. I didn't have much trouble as I was there to do a job and did it well. Soon I was the lead FWT of the watch and had folks working for me. It was a fun part of my life and I only did it for six years. I truly enjoyed the work and there was nothing I could not do so that made me easily accepted. It was a hot and dirty job but paid well at the time and when I left I went for a better paycheck on land and never looked back.

This is what's fun about this steam car. The principals are the same and i get to use that skill set that I learned many years ago. Folks that know me were not surprised that I had this car fired up and building steam in two day. Simple stuff that I didn't have to climb a ladder to turn a valve. Gotta love that.

Thanks again for the great idea's and I can't wait to try some of them. At the moment I have some other projects that have moved forward but that is the problem with retirement - way too much to do now.
Exactly don't know how I ever did anything before I retired, I still don't have enough time to do half what I want. trouble is also getting older and slower. I know what you mean by Oiler, we call it greaser but that has been surpassed by IR, but not familiar with FWT?
 

mslisaj

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Exactly don't know how I ever did anything before I retired, I still don't have enough time to do half what I want. trouble is also getting older and slower. I know what you mean by Oiler, we call it greaser but that has been surpassed by IR, but not familiar with FWT?
FWT = Fireman/Water Tender.

On being busy in retirement, well I aquired the steam car about a month ago. I played with it for about two weeks but I have other projects going so I had to put the steam car away for now, get back to the other projects (that now I'm behind on) I have going too and finish them off. Then the steam car will work it's way back to the top of the pile. But I am going to get a "plumbers torch" off the shelf and play with it too. Never in need of something to do around here. :D
 

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I believe the "plumbers torch" primus concept is more in keeping with the philosophy of the steam car even though propane would probably be easier so I hope your experiments are successful.
 

mslisaj

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Well I thought I had three of these torches but I only have two and the larger of the two is missing the pump assembly. So I will be working with the smaller torch but looking at it I would think it needs an overhaul too. So another project on my bench to rework and clean out the smaller torch. But I have them on the bench and it appears there are no interchangable parts so the smaller torch will be the one I use.
I'll keep you up on progress. I think I'll use Coleman fuel to start with.

Wish me luck.

Lisaimage.jpegimage.jpeg
 

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I believe the "plumbers torch" primus concept is more in keeping with the philosophy of the steam car even though propane would probably be easier so I hope your experiments are successful.
My thoughts exactly Savarin, When talking about historic type steam engines the historic concept is more important than convenience.
 

benmychree

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I started my first boat's fire that way (using a propane torch bottle to supply atomizing gas to the steam atomizing burner) once as a test, it took about 20 minutes to raise steam for the atomizing burner to work on, the test was successful, but I changed to the gas engine driven compressor as being more practical.
 

mslisaj

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Well Gentlemen I finally figured out the puzzle in the last two days. I put the car away in May of 2018 as I just didn't have time to experiment with it any more as I had too man older projects going. Then the long freezing winters of the North West here so playing with water doesn't work. But I got the car out and yesterday I tried the propane alone going though the original burner. I got a real nice flame but not a lot of "real" heat. As back in the discussions on this thread the point was made there was more BTU's in oil then propane. So here is what I did and I think I unraveled the puzzle the original builder set out for me. I let the propane go for 30 minutes and the boiler was hot to the touch but I wasn't boiling water yet. I was about to throw in the towel on this idea when I thought for the heck of it to just turn on the gravity fed diesel supply. Well this caught fire right away and added a lot more fire in the fire box. I had 15 pounds of steam pressure on the gauge in 10 minutes and successfully switched to steam atomized diesel and got the boiler going. So this worked but of course I had put 30 minutes of propane only heat into getting everything warmed up.

Well I secured the boiler for the night and let it get completely cold again. This morning I got everything set and again started the propane fire and then I started the trickle of diesel into the firebox to make a big fire. In 15 minutes I had 10 pounds of steam pressure and could switch over to steam atomization. This solved the puzzle! This is obviously what the builder was doing to fire this boiler from cold. By the way, the propane bottle still has lots of gas in it. I'll bet I could get five to eight starts or more out of that single propane bottle and I could carry a second one easily in the "trunk".

I want to thank you gentlemen for weighing in here. It was the original propane suggestion that got me looking at the mid sized propane bottles and they fit the holder built into the car. It was the experimentation yesterday and today that allowed me to figure out the puzzle. So I want to sincerely thank everyone here that came up with all the suggestions you put forth here. They were all appreciated and lead to a great discussion that eventually lead to the final answer. WE ALL SOLVED THIS PROBLEM TOGETHER AND I THANK YOU ALL FOR THAT.

Best regards,

Lisa
 
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