What is the best customizable 3D printer system these days?

[strantor]

I started out 3d printing back in 2011/2012 timeframe with a printer kit that I bought from a kid on a college campus. It is what is now known as the Prusa i3, but I think the kid made it from open source stuff on the internet because it predates the i3. It's made from MDF, threaded rods, and poor quality 3D printed parts. It still works but it's falling apart, held together with tape and zip ties. It was a PITA to get it running, a huge learning curve, and back in those days the suggestions from the internet panel of experts was all over the map. I did get it printing but lost interest in it after a couple of months, and it sat for over a decade collecting dust. Earlier this year I had a need for it and it was giving me hell trying to run it so I just went out and bought a Ender 3 from Microcenter in Houston and had it printing in under an hour. Very different than my earlier experience. Simple, easy, idiot-proof.

Now I am outgrowing the Ender 3 and I want to either build a printer to my specific needs or buy one that has the training wheels removed, more suited to being modified to my needs. The control board on my old printer (reprap Printrboard) was a very "manual" thing; it had dozens of parameters that had to be configured and flashed to the board. The opposite of the "ready to run" Ender 3. But the Ender 3 controller I am now seeing as the opposite of what I want. If there is a way to modify this thing to have for example more Y-travel or a 4th axis, or better stepper drivers for faster speed, dual extruders, or whatever, I don't see how that can be done. I thought about building a new printer around my old control board since it offers all the flexibility I'm after, but I'm sure there are better options out now.

So I am looking at 3D printers and controllers and getting overwhelmed with all the information. Octopusses, Klippers, Ramps, etc. all with many new features I don't yet know enough to ask about. Several connect to Raspberry Pi and I don't yet know why. I am already doing my homework and will continue doing it, but I am hoping that someone who unlike me hasn't taken a 10+ year hiatus or who has just recently done this homework can make a recommendation.

Here is basically what I'm after:

• Build volume x/y larger than 12" x 12" (preferably > 16" x 16")
• Heated chamber
• Runs files from SD card or thumb drive, no USB tether to PC required
• High temperature extruder
• Prints FAST with excellent accuracy
• Stores position and can resume after power outage
• Ability to exceed 3 axes
• stationary build plate, moving extruder
• Build plate level mapping/compensation
• Rugged build, doesn't get knocked out of calibration when moved.
• Maybe rugged enough to replace the extruder with a dremel and do some engraving.

 

[Gaffer]

I have yet to dive into 3-D printing, but I was quite fascinated following this thread.

The Voron kit build thread

I thought I'd start a thread for those of us building Voron printers. I just ordered my kit this morning. On a whim, I decided to spring for the black and red CNC machined aluminum parts kit to go with it. Hopefully it adds some rigidity and quality to the build. I downloaded a 3d CAD...

www.hobby-machinist.com

 

[GeneT45]

I haven't ever seen a 4th axis on a 3D printer. You'd probably need special slicing software - in this case, you'd probably have to write it yourself...

I've solved most of those other problems for myself - but it took 2 printers. The Bambu X1C combo is kind of the end-all be-all right now, though they have some competition coming on line. BUT it's not huge. So I have an Anycubic Kobra Max (16 x 16 ) as well. On the other hand, the Voron is supremely modifiable (since you need to build it...), but it's quite the opposite of plug and play.

GsT

 

[strantor]

I have yet to dive into 3-D printing, but I was quite fascinated following this thread.

The Voron kit build thread

I thought I'd start a thread for those of us building Voron printers. I just ordered my kit this morning. On a whim, I decided to spring for the black and red CNC machined aluminum parts kit to go with it. Hopefully it adds some rigidity and quality to the build. I downloaded a 3d CAD...

www.hobby-machinist.com

Thanks! My insomniac superpowers allowed me to spend several hours researching this suggestion last night and it is exactly what I asked for. In the course of that research I realized that what I asked for was more involved than I had envisioned. Several sources say it takes about 30 hours to build, and that is probably for normal people who don't spend 30 minutes looking for the wrench they left in the refrigerator, for every 5 minutes spent with that wrench in the hand. So I expect it would take me at least twice as many hours, or in other words nearly a month of evenings and weekends. So the Voron (excuse me, not the Voron, but my Voron) has been added to the list of things to buy & do, but not at the top of it.

After some reevaluation, reprioritization, and weighing needs, wants, feasibility, and time-frame, I think this might work for now:

R QIDI TECHNOLOGY MAX3 3D Printer,All-Around Large Size 3D Printers,600mm/s Fast Print,High Precision&High-Speed Industrial Grade,Fully Automatic Leveling,65℃ Chamber Heat,12.8×12.8×12.4" https://a.co/d/fVpffy9

It hits most of my bullet points or doesn't miss them by far, and is more-or-less ready to go out of the box. Users have some consistent gripes but I think they aren't deal breakers.

 

[strantor]

I haven't ever seen a 4th axis on a 3D printer.

check it out, pretty cool:

You'd probably need special slicing software - in this case, you'd probably have to write it yourself...

Yes, you do. And that is what I'm after; something that isn't so locked down that writing custom software isn't out of the question.

I've solved most of those other problems for myself - but it took 2 printers. The Bambu X1C combo is kind of the end-all be-all right now, though they have some competition coming on line. BUT it's not huge. So I have an Anycubic Kobra Max (16 x 16 ) as well. On the other hand, the Voron is supremely modifiable (since you need to build it...), but it's quite the opposite of plug and play.

GsT

The anycubic doesn't have enclosed/ heated chamber which I have convinced myself is a requirement. Bambu sure is attractive for speed and quality but seems not modifiable.

 

[7milesup]

After some reevaluation, reprioritization, and weighing needs, wants, feasibility, and time-frame, I think this might work for now:

R QIDI TECHNOLOGY MAX3 3D Printer,All-Around Large Size 3D Printers,600mm/s Fast Print,High Precision&High-Speed Industrial Grade,Fully Automatic Leveling,65℃ Chamber Heat,12.8×12.8×12.4" https://a.co/d/fVpffy9

It hits most of my bullet points or doesn't miss them by far, and is more-or-less ready to go out of the box. Users have some consistent gripes but I think they aren't deal breakers.

@strantor. I built a Voron 2.4r earlier this year and really enjoyed the build. I owned and extensively used a Prusa i3 Mk3 printer for 5 years prior to that. If you want to do any customization to a printer, the Voron is the way to go, in my opinion.
The printer that you linked above does not provide for any customization from what I can see unless you want to rip it apart and start replacing components, but at that point, you might as well have built one from scratch.

You mentioned that you want to print fast and accurately. You are probably already aware that as speed increases, the quality of the print generally goes down. If the speed is significant, you will outrun your nozzle and end up with a sparsely printed part, which happened to me recently, even though I have a Rapido hotend. To fix that, you need a high-flow nozzle with more volumetric flow capacity, i.e., Hotter and bigger.

I have never seen a fourth axis on a 3D printer other than your link above. I think there are enough challenges already without adding a 4th dimension and its associated challenges. Also, switching a 3D printer to a small CNC machine and back again would be a royal pain. If it is even possible, I venture to guess that it would do everything with mediocrity and nothing great.

I use Klipper as a controller coupled to a Raspberry Pi4 that is attached to my WIFI. I can then slice the print and upload it wirelessly, and hit print. It is very painless. I use Mainsaill as an interface. I slice my files with either Cura or Orca Slicer. Orca is based on Bambu (for the Bambu printer, but it is open source), which is based on the Prusa Slicer, which is based on Slic3r.

I would love to have two tool heads to allow different materials to be printed easily, but I am not sure if that is even an option on the Voron. They do have the ERCF (Enraged Rabbit Carrot Feeder) as a multi-material option, but I have not ventured down that road yet. https://www.trianglelab.net/products/enraged-rabbit-project

I would also add that the Voron community is super helpful in answering questions, especially over at www.teamfdm.com.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[ttabbal]

12x12 is somewhat common. 300x300mm anyway, which is pretty close to that. Larger is out there, I've even seen a 1000x1000mm commercially available. If you want to build, Voron designs are open source and very flexible. I'm not sure about 4 axis, I know some people are experimenting with things like that, but it's all very custom right now, you would likely have to code it yourself, both the firmware and the slicer.

For speed, you want a Core-XY design. Voron again. There are commercial printers using it now as well. To a point, speed and rugged are a trade-off. To get high speed, you need a very light extruder so you can run high acceleration as well, or you'll never hit high print speed. I would recommend going with a separate machine for engraving. Lasers work well on printer setups though. If you want fast, quality printing, a combo is not a good plan.

Power outage resume can be tricky. Cooling the build plate and chamber tend to cause the print to contract a little and pop off the plate. Most of them can suspend/resume these days. With filament runout sensors, it's very common to use the end of the spool, have it stop, reload and resume.

Klipper is the control software for the printer that high speed guys seem to prefer. It was first to have some of the features you really do need for high speed like input shaping. Marlin is the other big one, and likely what is running your Ender 3. Klipper is a bit different in that it does require a tethered computer, but something like a Raspberry Pi is fine. Old laptops, small form factor machines, etc all work. The idea is that the firmware needed more storage and CPU for the higher speed processing. So they split things up and most of the calculations run on the Pi while the chip on the printer is only really controlling the motors. The other nice thing about Klipper is that it uses a configuration file instead of storing everything in the firmware. So you just edit a text file to update things. The Pi can even run a webserver, so you can control it from your computer, phone, whatever. I don't even have a screen on the printer, don't need one. I just use my phone. I use Mainsail OS on the Pi, Fluid is the other big one I think. That's the OS you install on the Pi, just write an SD card, super easy and there are step by step directions all over the net for it. I believe you can set up Klipper to read from USB sticks in the Pi. I don't bother, I just upload to it direct from the slicer. Octoprint allows a similar setup, and has a compatible API, so slicers will work with both. Once the print is uploaded, you can turn off the PC you sliced on. The Pi handles it. You can also edit the config files from a web browser, so you don't need to do a lot of command line Linux stuff. There is still some, and of course, you can do it that way if you like.

I'm actually finding myself wanting to go the other way to a more reliable machine like the Bambu. Not perfect, but I find myself wanting to print things more than I want to tinker with the printer. Though I think I'll keep one around for that, probably my S1 Plus, and use it mostly when I want the larger build area. Thinking of that machine, I recently upgraded the bed to a nice cast aluminum setup that has a 110V heater. The new bed is very flat, but the heater is insanely nice. Only takes a minute to be up to temp. Highly recommended if you're comfortable working on electrical. That 300mm bed used to take a long time to get up to temp.

 

[strantor]

@strantor. I built a Voron 2.4r earlier this year and really enjoyed the build. I owned and extensively used a Prusa i3 Mk3 printer for 5 years prior to that. If you want to do any customization to a printer, the Voron is the way to go, in my opinion.

How long did it take you to build the Voron and did you order it as a complete kit? If so, where did you order it from?

The printer that you linked above does not provide for any customization from what I can see unless you want to rip it apart and start replacing components, but at that point, you might as well have built one from scratch.

I realize that but the reason I am considering it is that it has most of the things that I would want to add already, and the controller is open source (klipper) so maybe I can at least tinker with the programming. It doesn't seem to have any spare axis ports or I/O but since it's Klipper and already configured, maybe I can move that configuration to a more capable Klipper board? Not sure how all that works just yet. And it's under $1k.

You mentioned that you want to print fast and accurately. You are probably already aware that as speed increases, the quality of the print generally goes down. If the speed is significant, you will outrun your nozzle and end up with a sparsely printed part, which happened to me recently, even though I have a Rapido hotend. To fix that, you need a high-flow nozzle with more volumetric flow capacity, i.e., Hotter and bigger.

Thanks, that is probably the first thing I will need to address. For printing large parts (my main reason for upgrading) I am counting on needing a better extruder and a larger nozzle at minimum. If you have any recommendations on those parts I would love to hear it.

I have never seen a fourth axis on a 3D printer other than your link above. I think there are enough challenges already without adding a 4th dimension and its associated challenges.

You're probably right. I only listed it as an example of the extents of flexibility I was hoping to achieve.

Also, switching a 3D printer to a small CNC machine and back again would be a royal pain. If it is even possible, I venture to guess that it would do everything with mediocrity and nothing great.

Point taken.

I use Klipper as a controller coupled to a Raspberry Pi4 that is attached to my WIFI. I can then slice the print and upload it wirelessly, and hit print. It is very painless.

So the files are sent to and stored on the RPi, and the the RPi feeds the g-code in over USB one line at a time? Or? That's how my old i3 worked; it needed a computer connected to keep feeding the g-code to it. If I've got that wrong please correct me, I still don't fully understand why some of these need (maybe not need, but benefit from?) a RPi in the mix. What's the RPi's role? My Ender3 just takes the whole file on a SD card and that's awesome in my book.

I use Mainsaill as an interface. I slice my files with either Cura or Orca Slicer. Orca is based on Bambu (for the Bambu printer, but it is open source), which is based on the Prusa Slicer, which is based on Slic3r.

I am using Cura now, and it is a much better solution than the Slic3r/Prontrface combo I had to use 10 years ago. I am willing to try others, I have heard good things about Prusa Slicer but thought it was just for Prusa printers and likewise for Bambu. Never heard of Orca but will check it out after I've pulled the trigger on a printer.

I would love to have two tool heads to allow different materials to be printed easily, but I am not sure if that is even an option on the Voron.

If it is as "root access" as it seems to be (from the outside looking in) it should be able to be coerced into working I would think, under the "anything is possible" clause.

They do have the ERCF (Enraged Rabbit Carrot Feeder) as a multi-material option, but I have not ventured down that road yet. https://www.trianglelab.net/products/enraged-rabbit-project

That looks very cool!

I would also add that the Voron community is super helpful in answering questions, especially over at www.teamfdm.com.

Hope this helps a little.

It does, thank you!

 

[strantor]

For speed, you want a Core-XY design.

Yes I do. I didn't know the name for it when I posted yesterday, but I knew that the stationary part/moving extruder was the way to go. I just couldn't picture a print bed flying back and forth in Y axis as fast as it would have to, to make great speed.

There are commercial printers using it now as well.

The one I linked to is Core-XY

To a point, speed and rugged are a trade-off. To get high speed, you need a very light extruder so you can run high acceleration as well, or you'll never hit high print speed.

I can see that.

I would recommend going with a separate machine for engraving. Lasers work well on printer setups though. If you want fast, quality printing, a combo is not a good plan.

You're probably right.

Power outage resume can be tricky. Cooling the build plate and chamber tend to cause the print to contract a little and pop off the plate. Most of them can suspend/resume these days.

The first day I had my Ender 3, I had it plugged into an outlet that was powered off the lighting circuit and didn't realize it. 3 hours into an 8 hour print I left the shop and turned out the lights, expecting it to be done in the morning. Next morning it wasn't done of course, but I was baffled that it gave me an option to resume, and that the resume function actually worked! I assumed it would have lost steps but it somehow kept track of its position and just picked up where it left off, and you couldn't even tell where it happened in the finished print. Since then, this is something I absolutely want in a printer.

With filament runout sensors, it's very common to use the end of the spool, have it stop, reload and resume.

Yes filament runout sensor is also a strong desire.

Klipper is the control software for the printer that high speed guys seem to prefer. It was first to have some of the features you really do need for high speed like input shaping.

Ok good to know, thanks.

Marlin is the other big one, and likely what is running your Ender 3.

Marlin (a very old version of it) is what my old i3 runs - but it still requires a tethered computer. I guess the untethered operation is something that came later.

Klipper is a bit different in that it does require a tethered computer, but something like a Raspberry Pi is fine. Old laptops, small form factor machines, etc all work. The idea is that the firmware needed more storage and CPU for the higher speed processing. So they split things up and most of the calculations run on the Pi while the chip on the printer is only really controlling the motors.

Ok thanks, I understand the role of the RPi now.

The other nice thing about Klipper is that it uses a configuration file instead of storing everything in the firmware. So you just edit a text file to update things. The Pi can even run a webserver, so you can control it from your computer, phone, whatever. I don't even have a screen on the printer, don't need one. I just use my phone. I use Mainsail OS on the Pi, Fluid is the other big one I think. That's the OS you install on the Pi, just write an SD card, super easy and there are step by step directions all over the net for it. I believe you can set up Klipper to read from USB sticks in the Pi. I don't bother, I just upload to it direct from the slicer. Octoprint allows a similar setup, and has a compatible API, so slicers will work with both. Once the print is uploaded, you can turn off the PC you sliced on. The Pi handles it. You can also edit the config files from a web browser, so you don't need to do a lot of command line Linux stuff. There is still some, and of course, you can do it that way if you like.

Sounds awesome!

I'm actually finding myself wanting to go the other way to a more reliable machine like the Bambu. Not perfect, but I find myself wanting to print things more than I want to tinker with the printer.

I do want to tinker with the printer. But I need to print parts at the moment. That is why I am probably (almost certainly) saving Voron for later on down the line and buying a ready-to-run printer for the time being. I do like the Bambu and it would probably serve my immediate needs better than most anything, but I can't justify the price when I plan to build something just as capable down the line.

Though I think I'll keep one around for that, probably my S1 Plus, and use it mostly when I want the larger build area. Thinking of that machine, I recently upgraded the bed to a nice cast aluminum setup that has a 110V heater. The new bed is very flat, but the heater is insanely nice. Only takes a minute to be up to temp. Highly recommended if you're comfortable working on electrical. That 300mm bed used to take a long time to get up to temp.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[ggbutcher]

'm actually finding myself wanting to go the other way to a more reliable machine like the Bambu. Not perfect, but I find myself wanting to print things more than I want to tinker with the printer.

My kid futzed with an Ender 3 Pro, then just went and got the Bambu X1. It just prints, no futz...