Advice on Which Brand to Choose

[bulgie]

[snip] if you took some larger entity like Amazon, a quick back of the envelope calculation on my part says that if they had to add a COO to each of their listings, or verify that it was already there (a lot of them are), but if it were to be law, and they had to spend three minutes each to update every listing, they're looking at a little over a half a billion dollars of investment ONLY in the unskilled labor. Forget about keeping up with it or enforcing it. I don't know about you, but I'd need to see a reason to lay down half a billion dollars.

I'm not swayed by arguments like 'sure it's a small amount per item, but it adds up when you have a lot of items'. That's meaningless to me, the only thing that matters is the cost per unit sold. Since they sell probably a thousand or more copies per SKU (usually much more), the time it takes to detemine the COO and type it into the website is divided by a thousand (or a million) at the per copy level, the only measure that means anything to the consumer. Would I willingly pay one penny more to know the COO? (or whatever 3 thousandths of a minute of one of their employee's time costs) Yes I would, often much more.

Yes, the cost to look up the COO and type it on the website will be more for those items that sell less frequently. I suppose it might even come to a dollar! Tho I doubt it. Regardless, it's the cost of doing business. or it should be,

 

[Jake M]

I'm not swayed by arguments like 'sure it's a small amount per item, but it adds up when you have a lot of items'.

I don't disagree with you. The cost per item over however long it takes to amortize the amount doesn't really amount to much per unit. Percentage wise, this is peanuts. But they must amortize it over some period, it will raise the price, and those of us who even look to see if that information is there is such a small percentage, there is no return on that investment. That's the problem. If "Made In USA" sold items, it'd be plastered all over EVERY listing. Half of the remaining items that ARE still made in the USA don't even bother to brag about it in their own advertising. Because collectively, America doesn't care. There are exceptions, but statistically it's not really a tangible number.

We, being those of us who both understand the problem, (which clearly goes way beyond retail sales) AND don't have our morals swayed by ten cents difference from one item to another, we have got to fix the "nobody cares" issue before we can worry too much about sellers and advertisers not catering to a group that isn't big enough to even be a blip on their radar.

Regardless, it's the cost of doing business. or it should be,

It's not going to be a "cost of doing business" until A, it's legally required, or B, there's enough demand for it that it reflects on their sales numbers. It's not something sleazy that retailers and advertisers are doing to America. I think it's quite the opposite. The advertisers and retailers are (as they always have and always will) are catering to Americans. The lack of COO information is not "sleeze" on the retailer's part, but rather an unfortunate and unattractive reflection of where Americans are at right now.

 

[Aaron_W]

On the COO tangeant-

Part of the problem is even when COO is listed the meaning has become watered down, Made in USA these days in some cases just means some assembly in USA or even some on the production is done in the USA. You also have assembled from global parts.

I find this often with appliances where there may still be one USA factory building them, but also factories outside the US, so very little way to know where the individual appliance you get is coming from.

For myself if the origin is not stated it is probably China. If it is India, Mexico or Taiwan that is usually advertised, and it is rare that an actual Made in USA item will not capitalize on making that known.

 

[Nesse1]

I'd go for one of the PM machines. Delivered to your home, brand new, with warranty and support as needed. The only disadvantage is that it will cost more. But some of us value our time the way others value money. So it's a personal decision.

 

[Jake M]

... it is rare that an actual Made in USA item will not capitalize on making that known.

Snap On Tools of all brands, the biggest champion there was of "Made in USA" advertising that there ever was, is dropping that labeling one tool at a time, as the tooling to make the tools gets updated. They don't find it worth the cost to extend the stamping (which they're still doing) with the size, part number so that it includes USA on it. As they mix more and more global tools into their lineup, they found out that basically, the buyers don't care.

 

[bulgie]

I'd go for one of the PM machines. Delivered to your home, brand new, with warranty and support as needed. The only disadvantage is that it will cost more. But some of us value our time the way others value money. So it's a personal decision.

That all sounds lovely but with my requirements (including NMIC), I'd have to go to the 833T, which costs 3 times what my Taiwanese round-column cost used, even before shipping. Mine also came pretty well tooled-up; I shudder to think what it'd cost to buy all that tooling new.

The difference between new and used price is more than I paid for my lathe, welder, bandsaw and drill press combined. (Got them all used too of course). I have no income other than SocSec, so this difference is not a small thing for me.

I can understand how buying used is not a great option for some people. You may not live in a place with many options, or you may not feel competent to judge the amount of wear on ways, leadscrews etc. But if you're patient, you can get one from the estate of a hobbyist who died before putting hardly any mileage on his machines. Or in the case of my mill, from a startup that used it for prototyping for a few weeks while they waited for their VMC to be delivered/installed, then let it collect dust in the corner for 10 years before they decided they needed the space. There are barely-used machines out there!

One benefit of a benchtop mill is they're rarely used in industry, so most never saw production. Hobbyist machines spend most of their days resting. With a Bridgeport or other "real" mill, you have to worry more about wear from years of 3 shifts a day.

 

[Nesse1]

That all sounds lovely but with my requirements (including NMIC), I'd have to go to the 833T, which costs 3 times what my Taiwanese round-column cost used, even before shipping. Mine also came pretty well tooled-up; I shudder to think what it'd cost to buy all that tooling new.

The difference between new and used price is more than I paid for my lathe, welder, bandsaw and drill press combined. (Got them all used too of course). I have no income other than SocSec, so this difference is not a small thing for me.

I can understand how buying used is not a great option for some people. You may not live in a place with many options, or you may not feel competent to judge the amount of wear on ways, leadscrews etc. But if you're patient, you can get one from the estate of a hobbyist who died before putting hardly any mileage on his machines. Or in the case of my mill, from a startup that used it for prototyping for a few weeks while they waited for their VMC to be delivered/installed, then let it collect dust in the corner for 10 years before they decided they needed the space. There are barely-used machines out there!

One benefit of a benchtop mill is they're rarely used in industry, so most never saw production. Hobbyist machines spend most of their days resting. With a Bridgeport or other "real" mill, you have to worry more about wear from years of 3 shifts a day.

This is typical of what comes up in my area in terms of bench top mills.

Rong Fu Milling Drilling Machine Bench Top Mill Drill Press - tools - by owner - sale - craigslist

* Rong Fu mill bench top - 110 volt - works great - good condition - very clean * Made in Taiwan this is the quality one - very heavy truck needed for pick up * Price $1,100 - phone Terry * No...

losangeles.craigslist.org

For those of us which don't own a truck, you have to add in the cost of a rental. So, add an additional $200 or so. In the end, you wind up with a rusty 40 year old machine without any tooling. Not horrible, assuming the machine is in decent shape. But you need to make a stand, buy tooling, etc. Still cheaper than a new PM machine, I get that.

I went, still going, through purchase of a used machine, lathe, that needed a stand, etc, tooling, ect, and while it's been a fun journey, I won't do it again for a mill. For one thing, I want a square column mill, not round, and very few of those come up for sale used.

Bottom line, round column's come up regularly, and if you are okay with that, I'd get used. For square, I'd go new.

 

[455dan]

This is on Craiglist akron ohio I believe this to be to tall for your requirements
but lets you know there are alternatives out there. https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/tls/d/kent-milling-machine/7692633385.html

WoW there is what location can do to prices.

That is the problem around here,
Even take your chances unkown condition Bridgeport's sell Well above that price.

This is the only Bridgeport within 200 miles sold in quite a while, and it still bid to $2800.

 

[Aaron_W]

That all sounds lovely but with my requirements (including NMIC), I'd have to go to the 833T, which costs 3 times what my Taiwanese round-column cost used, even before shipping. Mine also came pretty well tooled-up; I shudder to think what it'd cost to buy all that tooling new.

The difference between new and used price is more than I paid for my lathe, welder, bandsaw and drill press combined. (Got them all used too of course). I have no income other than SocSec, so this difference is not a small thing for me.

I can understand how buying used is not a great option for some people. You may not live in a place with many options, or you may not feel competent to judge the amount of wear on ways, leadscrews etc. But if you're patient, you can get one from the estate of a hobbyist who died before putting hardly any mileage on his machines. Or in the case of my mill, from a startup that used it for prototyping for a few weeks while they waited for their VMC to be delivered/installed, then let it collect dust in the corner for 10 years before they decided they needed the space. There are barely-used machines out there!

One benefit of a benchtop mill is they're rarely used in industry, so most never saw production. Hobbyist machines spend most of their days resting. With a Bridgeport or other "real" mill, you have to worry more about wear from years of 3 shifts a day.

Used, the round column mills make a lot of sense. They don't seem to hold their value, so there are some great deals on them and you can get a lot of mill for the price. I have seen some nicely tooled ones in decent shape for as little as $900-1000.

The issue is when buying new, the round column mills are just a lot less competitive. There are a lot of good, large benchtop mills in the $2000-4000 price range. New the round column mills run $2200 at the low end for clones to $3300+ for an actual Rong Fu RF-31.

 

[StudioMachinist]

Just an update for everyone still on their toes about which mill I'd get, I went for the PM-727V.