Looking for my perfect size hobby mill....

[mksj]

I think we all have gone through a few machines and tools on our path to what we consider keepers. It was unclear as to the statement of the perfect starter mill as to your needs and the quality level you were looking at, but smaller mills do a very decent job of milling because a bench top design in a small configuration can be rigid enough, and for many they may be limited to 120VAC. The PM-928 is on the higher price point for a starter mill for most people, travel is very good, and with the base is around 450 lbs which is manageable for most people.

With regard to resale value, it may be debatable as to which holds better value, a knee or a bench-top. I will say that better built machinery will hold their value better than poorly made machinery. Some of the important characteristics of mills is the table travel, particularly the Y and also the Z (i.e. what will fit under the head). It sounds like you are divided between the something like the 935 and the 932, I personally feel on the latter you would be much better off with the 940. Main reason is you gain 4" of Y travel and 3" of Z travel. You are right up there with the pm-935 and a bit more Z travel. If you are looking for better quality, and you consider it affordable, then the PM-833 would fit the build.

I started with a bench mill comparable to the 932, and the biggest limitation was Y travel which was about 8.5" and you loose an inch with a DRO scale on the back. Put a bigger vice on it and you just can't get enough Y travel for milling something longer than 4". My biggest gripe was my first mill was marginal quality and some major faults, despite being quite expensive for a Chinese mainland built mill. There was also little to no post sales support and replacement parts took many months. I still could do very good and accurate work, so a story very similar to Bill's. I ended choosing a full size knee mill which is north of 2 tons and a beast to move even with a rolling base. Yes it is more rigid, it needs to be when you factor in the leverage distances going from the table to head in a long "C" shape. A bench-top can be very rigid with less mass. The PM-833 is close to 750 lbs without the base, the PM-932 is 850 lbs. Both are manageable with an engine hoist but still awkward.

If I was starting out, with what I know now after about 12 years of machining, in a bench-top the PM-833 would probably be my first choice, the PM-940 my second choice. If just making small parts and playing around, or even gunsmithing, I would be very happy with the PM-928VT. I also consider these bench-tops as movable should you need to relocate, full size mills that is a different story. I prefer a knee for other reasons, but I hope I never have to move it again.

 

[Mr Mike]

I think we all have gone through a few machines and tools on our path to what we consider keepers. It was unclear as to the statement of the perfect starter mill as to your needs and the quality level you were looking at, but smaller mills do a very decent job of milling because a bench top design in a small configuration can be rigid enough, and for many they may be limited to 120VAC. The PM-928 is on the higher price point for a starter mill for most people, travel is very good, and with the base is around 450 lbs which is manageable for most people.

With regard to resale value, it may be debatable as to which holds better value, a knee or a bench-top. I will say that better built machinery will hold their value better than poorly made machinery. Some of the important characteristics of mills is the table travel, particularly the Y and also the Z (i.e. what will fit under the head). It sounds like you are divided between the something like the 935 and the 932, I personally feel on the latter you would be much better off with the 940. Main reason is you gain 4" of Y travel and 3" of Z travel. You are right up there with the pm-935 and a bit more Z travel. If you are looking for better quality, and you consider it affordable, then the PM-833 would fit the build.

I started with a bench mill comparable to the 932, and the biggest limitation was Y travel which was about 8.5" and you loose an inch with a DRO scale on the back. Put a bigger vice on it and you just can't get enough Y travel for milling something longer than 4". My biggest gripe was my first mill was marginal quality and some major faults, despite being quite expensive for a Chinese mainland built mill. There was also little to no post sales support and replacement parts took many months. I still could do very good and accurate work, so a story very similar to Bill's. I ended choosing a full size knee mill which is north of 2 tons and a beast to move even with a rolling base. Yes it is more rigid, it needs to be when you factor in the leverage distances going from the table to head in a long "C" shape. A bench-top can be very rigid with less mass. The PM-833 is close to 750 lbs without the base, the PM-932 is 850 lbs. Both are manageable with an engine hoist but still awkward.

If I was starting out, with what I know now after about 12 years of machining, in a bench-top the PM-833 would probably be my first choice, the PM-940 my second choice. If just making small parts and playing around, or even gunsmithing, I would be very happy with the PM-928VT. I also consider these bench-tops as movable should you need to relocate, full size mills that is a different story. I prefer a knee for other reasons, but I hope I never have to move it again.

Thank you for your input, A Lot of good info... I need to do some soul searching - so much to think about.!

 

[ArmyDoc]

I am going through much the same decision process as you are, so I thought I would share how I am approaching this decision.
(Also, If anyone with more experience would like to comment, correct or improve on this I welcome their input.)

First Consideration: Available space.
For many people this is the rate limiting step. You can't get anything larger than you have space to put it, and building more space will likely cost more than the machine.

Second Consideration: Capability
It makes no sense to buy a less capable mill if you have the space, and the cost is the same.
Capability breaks down into 4 or 5 sub categories
- Work envelope - X, Y, Z movement not just table size
- Rigidity - Largely correlated to machine weight
- Power - Hp of motor, as well as single vs 3 phase
- Quality - largely China vs Taiwan vs Industrial machines
- CNC capability - native vs conversion (not important if you don't ever want CNC)

Third Consideration: Support / after purchase risk of problems
This can come in different forms depending on the machine
-New vs Used
-Warranty
-Community support / people you know who know the machine

Fourth Consideration: Tooling
What comes with it? How much more am I going to have to spend to get up and running?
Many would put this higher, but I know how to solve this problem - I can always buy more tooling. If I have a problem with the machine, without support, I may not be able to solve the problem.

Fifth Consideration: Cost
Some would put this higher too, but if you have three machines that are all at the same price, you make the determination based on Capability and other factors. It really only matters with in a certain price range. So I use cost as a price cap. I won't look at machines that cost more than "X" dollars. Below that, everything is fair game.

Using these, and your posts above I would say it boils down to the PM 940M for ~$5000 with power down feed and hardened ways, or the PM 935TS for ~$7,000. I would have also included the 833T, but it doesn't have power down feed for boring operations, and I don't know if it can be added.

These are very comparable in work envelope (with the PM 940M actually being a bit larger). Interestingly, they are within 100# of each other, and the PM940 design is probably more rigid. The one thing you give up though, is the ability to nod the head. Another consideration is that it is a Chinese bench top vs Taiwan knee mill.

 

[wrmiller]

Another consideration is that it is a Chinese bench top vs Taiwan knee mill.

For me, this would be very near the top of the list, as I want the machine(s) to outlast me.

Also, my 935 is only slightly less rigid than my 9x45 was, and even that was only noticeable when taking very heavy cuts with larger end mills. Oh, and if you are going to be doing a lot of heavy cutting on a Chinese bench top (or any other for that matter) you need to put longevity near the top of your list, because continual heavy cuts on any of these small mills will slowly beat it to death. Just an observation.

 

[Mr Mike]

I am going through much the same decision process as you are, so I thought I would share how I am approaching this decision.
(Also, If anyone with more experience would like to comment, correct or improve on this I welcome their input.)

First Consideration: Available space.
For many people this is the rate limiting step. You can't get anything larger than you have space to put it, and building more space will likely cost more than the machine.

Second Consideration: Capability
It makes no sense to buy a less capable mill if you have the space, and the cost is the same.
Capability breaks down into 4 or 5 sub categories
- Work envelope - X, Y, Z movement not just table size
- Rigidity - Largely correlated to machine weight
- Power - Hp of motor, as well as single vs 3 phase
- Quality - largely China vs Taiwan vs Industrial machines
- CNC capability - native vs conversion (not important if you don't ever want CNC)

Third Consideration: Support / after purchase risk of problems
This can come in different forms depending on the machine
-New vs Used
-Warranty
-Community support / people you know who know the machine

Fourth Consideration: Tooling
What comes with it? How much more am I going to have to spend to get up and running?
Many would put this higher, but I know how to solve this problem - I can always buy more tooling. If I have a problem with the machine, without support, I may not be able to solve the problem.

Fifth Consideration: Cost
Some would put this higher too, but if you have three machines that are all at the same price, you make the determination based on Capability and other factors. It really only matters with in a certain price range. So I use cost as a price cap. I won't look at machines that cost more than "X" dollars. Below that, everything is fair game.

Using these, and your posts above I would say it boils down to the PM 940M for ~$5000 with power down feed and hardened ways, or the PM 935TS for ~$7,000. I would have also included the 833T, but it doesn't have power down feed for boring operations, and I don't know if it can be added.

These are very comparable in work envelope (with the PM 940M actually being a bit larger). Interestingly, they are within 100# of each other, and the PM940 design is probably more rigid. The one thing you give up though, is the ability to nod the head. Another consideration is that it is a Chinese bench top vs Taiwan knee mill.

Hello...
Thanks for your insight, truly sorry your riding on the same boat as me... Curious, What size is your main lathe...?

 

[Mr Mike]

For me, this would be very near the top of the list, as I want the machine(s) to outlast me.

Hello Sir.

Lol I am almost 60, so the plastic toy lathe & Mill from toys R us will out last me at this point, I do appreciate a quality tool though and always have.

 

[wrmiller]

Hello Sir.

Lol I am almost 60, so the plastic toy lathe & Mill from toys R us will out last me at this point, I do appreciate a quality tool though and always have.

I'm 65 (or is it 66?) and I figure/hope that I can get another 10 years or so out of me and my machines.

 

[ArmyDoc]

Hello...
Thanks for your insight, truly sorry your riding on the same boat as me... Curious, What size is your main lathe...?

Have to laugh. I don't have a lathe yet. I have two tickets to ride this boat boat of yours. I'm going through the same troubles deciding on a lathe. What I want is a PM 14-40GT, but it is really out of my price range. I would like to get the lathe for right around $5k, so I am seriously looking at the PM 13-40GT. The only thing I don't like about it is the 1.5 inch spindle instead of 2 inch.

I'm not locked into new, but I am leaning that way. I saw a gorgeous used Clausing-Colchester 13x36 that had a hydraulic tracer attachment for $7500. I should have got it and just parked my car in the rain till my shop is done. But the garage has no AC and with Georgia humidity, I just couldn't. Why? Um, coolness factor?

Lol. Actually, while I don't need it, it would be nice for one of the projects I have in mind. One of the things I want to make are custom chess pieces. It would be nice to get them all exactly the same. Thus, the tracer attachment would have been really nice.

That's the reason I would like to have a 2 inch bore - a standard King chess piece is between 1.75 and 2 inches in base diameter. Yes, I can make the kings and queens individually on a much smaller lathe, but it would be nice to make them serially from one piece of bar stock. Finish one, part it off, push in the bar a bit an start the next, as opposed to cutting each individually. I just can't bring myself to jump from 5k to 9k to get the 2 in bore diameter. If I could get it for $1 or 2k? That would be much more tempting.

Only good thing I have going is I am building my shop, so space is not an issue. (Yet?)

 

[Mr Mike]

Have to laugh. I don't have a lathe yet. I have two tickets to ride this boat boat of yours. I'm going through the same troubles deciding on a lathe. What I want is a PM 14-40GT, but it is really out of my price range. I would like to get the lathe for right around $5k, so I am seriously looking at the PM 13-40GT. The only thing I don't like about it is the 1.5 inch spindle instead of 2 inch.

I'm not locked into new, but I am leaning that way. I saw a gorgeous used Clausing-Colchester 13x36 that had a hydraulic tracer attachment for $7500. I should have got it and just parked my car in the rain till my shop is done. But the garage has no AC and with Georgia humidity, I just couldn't. Why? Um, coolness factor?

Lol. Actually, while I don't need it, it would be nice for one of the projects I have in mind. One of the things I want to make are custom chess pieces. It would be nice to get them all exactly the same. Thus, the tracer attachment would have been really nice.

That's the reason I would like to have a 2 inch bore - a standard King chess piece is between 1.75 and 2 inches in base diameter. Yes, I can make the kings and queens individually on a much smaller lathe, but it would be nice to make them serially from one piece of bar stock. Finish one, part it off, push in the bar a bit an start the next, as opposed to cutting each individually. I just can't bring myself to jump from 5k to 9k to get the 2 in bore diameter. If I could get it for $1 or 2k? That would be much more tempting.

Only good thing I have going is I am building my shop, so space is not an issue. (Yet?)

Choosing a lathe is just as daunting a task... of which ill be Zero help with. for me their all just toys because they server no real world usage other then something new to learn and putts with , for other people they are purpose driven and are a useful means to an end.

The only thing I know is I'd prefer quality over size... The quality of build in the 10" Logan I was restoring is easily better then this Chinese Enco 12 X 36 I just got.. I guarantee you that has more to do with price point and the Era in which they were built.

Buying used for me is not to difficult because i'm willing to risk my labor to fix the judgment laps I had to buy it... some times ignorance is bliss and may save some cash. for me its to learn and have fun with, Now if I had an actual hard purpose for the machine I would look at this in a different light.

I personally believe the statement made in Taiwan, doesn't automatically mean you get a better quality machine, you can get less quality from anywhere.

My only advice to you would be.... find a place where you can see and touch what your going to buy the first go round with the lathe... You don't have to buy it their but you will at least have an idea or reference to work off of.

I'm not joking... As an example the PM 12 X 28 on a stand I was looking at buying weights in at around 500 Lbs less than the PM-1236T 12 X 36 ULTRA, You and I both know the last 8 inchs don't weight 500 lbs, so something is amiss.

I am also currently working out how big a workshop to build in the back yard... My last workshop was 24' X 32' and was perfect for all my wood and metal working tools, This time I'm thinking 6' wider to stop the wife from hogging my open workspace.

 

[ArmyDoc]

I am also currently working out how big a workshop to build in the back yard... My last workshop was 24' X 32' and was perfect for all my wood and metal working tools, This time I'm thinking 6' wider to stop the wife from hogging my open workspace.

Let me be the first to say, in the tradition of this site, "Build it bigger". Sorry, just had to... its a tradition.

I am building a combination Shop and storage facility for the Ag equipment on my farm. I still need to work out exactly how much room I need for the Ag equipment, but I'm planning on 40x40 for the shop portion. I posted a rough draft in this thread, post #12. Advice on shop build

I don't really have a purpose for the lathe / mill / shop etc. I will be retiring sometime in the next 10 years I expect. I have always enjoyed designing things and making things. My undergrad degree was Biomedical engineering before medical school. So I have some background... even if it is covered in 30 years of rust. I just want to be able to explore ideas and make things that interest me, keep my mind nimble and have some fun.