[How-To] 5hp 3-phase AC motor & VFD control question

Here is another way to look at it. If you plot it you get this:
The upper left is the reduction gear. It will always be 5x torque at 1/5 rpm.

The green numbers are torque and rpm for 1.08:1
You can rescale the green numbers for different pulley sizes.
The pink dotted area is extended capability for an inverter motor.
77668BD0-AC76-4A3E-8D17-31F19E6B2778.jpeg
 
Ya thats a good way to visually understand it. Thanks for that Rabler.

I'm on the hunt now for an inverter duty motor ... I only want to do this once so I might as well use good parts. Bill
 
A lot of motor ads for Baldor, WEG, TECO, etc I'm looking at say they are "general purpose" or "industrial" and don't specifically say they are "inverter duty". Are inverter duty motors different than these other categories?
 
It is good to figure out the torque and Hp vs. spindle speed and factor in the effects of the reduction gear, but I would also look at other VFD factory lathes and and also those that have retrofitted similar lathes. In addition modern VFD's can apply higher torque levels for different periods of time, but they are very hard to stall out. In almost all cases, a you will find that a 5Hp motor with a 2 speed gearbox (typically with reduction ratios of 5-8:1) are the norm. They are pretty much unstoppable under any load they would face in a hobbyist setting. In fact even a 3 Hp vector motor would run well. The main focus in my experience has been to optimize the performance range of the motor to the desired spindle speeds. In the case of using a non-inverter motor, typically you will max out the RPM at around 90-100 Hz, more so because of performance drop off beyond this range. On the low end, typically 15-20 Hz based on torque falling off below that range and cooling issues in a TEFC motor which are typical cooling method for these types a motor. You can go to 120 Hz, but Hp will start to drop off and torque can be significantly reduced, that being said you typically do not need high levels of torque at speed. So your pulley ratio is set more by the top speed of your motor, and the reduction ratio is fixed.

An Inverter/vector motor will spin up to 5-6K and so the whole power scale is shifted (and much wider) and also has a higher motor to spindle belting ratio. If you take a standard motor, run it to 100 Hz you would use 1:1.2 drive ratio to the spindle so multiple the Hp and torque of the motor speed x 1.2 to get the applied spindle forces. At 60 Hz the spindle speed will be ~1450 RPM. Take an inverter vector motor to 200 Hz, your spindle to motor RPM ratio is now 1:2.4, at 60 Hz the spindle speed will be ~1050 RPM, but with 2.4x the mechanical ratio, and even at 30 Hz (525 RPM) you still will have significant higher torque and Hp because of the higher motor pulley ratio. I can tell you from numerous installs that you could take a 5 Hp inverter/vector motor down to 10 Hz and I still doubt you could stall it. In either case, a vector motor operating range would be around 20-200 Hz, so in high gear you have a spindle speed of around 250-2500, and in low gear you I wouldn't run the gearbox input past what it was designed for ~3000 RPM (100 Hz) input with a 5:1 reduction would be 600 RPM and then you have a belt reduction of 2.4 which would put you at 250 and around 35 RPM at 15 Hz but with twice the applied mechanical ratio of the non-inverter vector motor at the same Hz. So a pretty significant increase in performance, but bottom line neither motor will be stoppable. Last but not least there can be issues of motor pulsations, one area where the DC motors a very smooth. Really not an issue with 3 phase motors v.s. single phase, and an inverter/vector motor should be smoother than a standard motor at the same spindle speed (i.e. the inverter/vector motor will be spinning faster for the same spindle speed).

So with either motor you need to look at the operating range and mechanical ratio to optimize the operating range/performance of the motor. My lathe model comes in a 1340/1440 and has either a 3 Hp (8 speed) or 5 Hp (2 speed) with factory VFD. I went with a 3 Hp (inverter rated, not a vector), which I operate from ~15-80 Hz, I can take heavy DOC cuts even at the low speed and it is unstoppable. I primarily use just the high low gear only which is 1500/300 RPM. I did purchase a Lincoln inverter vector motor for it, but never found the need to go that route.
 
An inverter/vector motor are different. They a purposely designed to be run with a VFD, they will usually have on the motor plate operating performance posted to 120 Hz and have a posted top speed in the 5-6K. Look up the listing on the motors I indicated. The most commong ones are the Marathon Black/Blue Max series and the Baldor/ABB/Reliance IDNM or similar types. They all have Constant toques typically in the 1000:1 or greater range.
 
Thanks I did look at those listings and noticed the motor plates all had inverter duty mentioned on them. Thats what I went looking for locally here online to see if I could find anything. I don't know what happens to good used 3-phase motors in Canada as not many seem to be listed for sale. Other than a ton of them by a company out in BC on the west coast, but for me the shipping would be more than the motor cost. Bill
 
I agree, I have worked with a few other individuals looking for machine replacement motors in Canada and it was almost impossible even to get a decent 3 phase motor, also the VFD's were quite a bit more. It is a hard call, but you could check with some of the eBay motors listed to see if they would ship to Canada and is so cost. There is also the import tariff. Which may all add up to be a deal breaker. I feel with the mechanical reduction box you would be fine with the motor you have, if you can find an inverter duty motor at a reasonable price within your budget, I think it is a worthwhile upgrade but not a necessity.

 
Ya we pay the price here in the great white north LOL. Pre-covid, I spent the winters in the south and generally just bought everything I needed while I was there and brought it home with me in the spring. Most of the eBay stuff I bought had free shipping in the US as a bonus. I can hardly wait to get back to that "normal".

I have a couple motor suppliers here locally I will call tomorrow and see what they can find on their shelf. eBay sellers in the US are out of the question even though their price is reasonable for the motor, the freight cost and bullcrap "customs brokerage fees" kill the deal for us Canucks. If I can't find something locally within driving distance, I will proceed with the china motor I have to get me going again until the border opens up hopefully by next winter. Bill
 
Ok guys I've been fiddling with graphing as Rabler showed as it helps me see the comparison better. Here's what I come up. If correct, I need to change my current 6.5" OD drive pulley to a 4" and retain my 5:1 reduction gearbox. These plots are based on my current chinese 5hp AC motor, so they might change a little if I am able to find a better 5hp inverter duty motor around 1800 rpm. Am I right? Bill
 

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Yes looks good, assumes you max out at around 100Hz (3000 RPM) with the gear reduction for a spindle speed ~350 RPM and high speed range starts around 15-20 Hz, spindle speed ~250. Your top end speed will be limited a bit. Torque above the base motor base speed falls off in a non-linear fashion, but Hp is more important in that speed range. I would set the motor for the standard 150% overload on the VFD, so you could exceed the torque by up to 1.5X for up to a minute. In reality I think you will have no issues with having enough turning power.
 
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