Boyar-Schultz 612

Thanks Dabbler. Be interesting if either of these two would let me grind a parallel on either machine. Then there's the whole cluster of never have even run a SG before. So how would I know if it's the machine or bad technique? More questions :)
 
The easiest thing to grind is a thin parallel. Even with a poorly dressed wheel it is more forgiving than many other things such as soft metal, large surfaces, etc. It is long enough to forgive 'bouncing' of the wheel if the spindle is loose, but you can still see the ripples on the parallel. Chinese parallels are hard and cheap, perfect for the purpose. You have to bring a 1-2-3 block and a clamp to stabilize the parallel and use at least a 1 1/8" parallel to get clearance.

Just use a smooth moderate stroke, about 3 seconds for a 6" stroke, and keep it as consistent as you can. It takes years to get a great technique, but even the first time grinding you should get pretty good dimensionality.
 
Well armed with all this info I went forth to view the two machines. It did make me sound to them like I knew what I was doing and had run a grinder before but I admitted quickly I was not. Both of them SG's were not their thing.

The first was a Chevalier FSG 618 with a stack of diamond and abrasive wheels and several fixtures. I was led to believe they didn't use the machine for production but for me the fist tip off was the X wheel's black powder coat was gone around the rim and was shiny bright. These come solid black and I know from personal experience powdercoat is some tough stuff. Pulled the table and inspected the ways and all the flaking was gone except the very ends. There seemed like wear as there was a ridge about 3/4 up the way and I don't remember seeing the same ridge on the ends. If I had to gues .005 to .008. Admittedly I'm rusty not having done an engine in a while but I used to be pretty good being able to gauge wear by feel. I could have it all wrong as I'm no expert but my spidy sense was going off.

The spindle seemed quiet and smooth and was told it had new bearings at one time, hmmmm. The rubber to protect the Y ways had been shot for a while and there seemed scoring on the end of the Y ways which didn't sit to well with me either. After looking at the table ways I felt like this had been used far more than the son who was showing me had witnessed and probably the machine was better than my noob senses knew, but I can't knowingly take on another project. The seller was an extremely honest nice guy and at $1000 it's probably worth it to somebody who knows more but I decided it was another project I'm getting too long in the tooth for.
 
The second machine was made by Richyoung and like so many PAC rim machines it seems to be a design that was sold by Enco, HF, and now Grizzley. It is a 612 and weighs like 500lbs. Several things made it appeal to me. It also was supposedly not used much and had a new fine pole mag chuck and its down to $600. It has a heavy duty table with plate top and square tube legs. The paint looks good and for a machine made in the late 90's it looked nice.

It was shocking how easy X moved. Turned out it was ball bearings with a quick look was full of grease. But in going through y travel I saw movement and the y part of the table had like 1/4" of back and forth play! Finally found the gib and it was like with my RF30 having a screw that engages a tapered gib. It looked like the adjustment was backed off all the way and it took I don't know how many turns to take up the play. But it did tighten up and seemed to move with the same amount of drag through the whole y travel with about .015" of play in the lead screw. The z was flaked and looked new, it also went through its travel fine although the rubber dust guard for the Z was totally gone but the lead screw didn't look full junk.

I let the grinder run for a while while I went out and got my TI and known straight edge. The spindle sounded different than the Chevalier as I would expect and the seller thought it sounded great as he's a woodworker. To me there was a little whine that came and went and as it spun down it seemed like the wheel had a little wobble and I was pretty sure the wheel was not dressed as metal machines were not the sellers forte. I was going to test for spindle play and my TI jumped like .005" and thought WTH? When I lifted the wheel there was a clunk of play and I showed the owner and said well I guess I'm outta here as I don't want to rebuild spindles. He texted me back later and said the wheel hub had come loose and he tightened it up and no more play. My problem is where do I go from here? The chuck has never been ground in as it's beyond the seller or my experience, so how would I even get a clue as to how I could even judge if this thing is worth it or not? He's asking $600 and it has nothing with it, no hub puller, no spare parts and only the wheel that's on it which who knows what it is.
 
C-Bag said:
The second machine was made by Richyoung and like so many PAC rim machines it seems to be a design that was sold by Enco, HF, and now Grizzley. It is a 612 and weighs like 500lbs. Several things made it appeal to me. It also was supposedly not used much and had a new fine pole mag chuck and its down to $600. It has a heavy duty table with plate top and square tube legs. The paint looks good and for a machine made in the late 90's it looked nice.

It was shocking how easy X moved. Turned out it was ball bearings with a quick look was full of grease. But in going through y travel I saw movement and the y part of the table had like 1/4" of back and forth play! Finally found the gib and it was like with my RF30 having a screw that engages a tapered gib. It looked like the adjustment was backed off all the way and it took I don't know how many turns to take up the play. But it did tighten up and seemed to move with the same amount of drag through the whole y travel with about .015" of play in the lead screw. The z was flaked and looked new, it also went through its travel fine although the rubber dust guard for the Z was totally gone but the lead screw didn't look full junk.

I let the grinder run for a while while I went out and got my TI and known straight edge. The spindle sounded different than the Chevalier as I would expect and the seller thought it sounded great as he's a woodworker. To me there was a little whine that came and went and as it spun down it seemed like the wheel had a little wobble and I was pretty sure the wheel was not dressed as metal machines were not the sellers forte. I was going to test for spindle play and my TI jumped like .005" and thought WTH? When I lifted the wheel there was a clunk of play and I showed the owner and said well I guess I'm outta here as I don't want to rebuild spindles. He texted me back later and said the wheel hub had come loose and he tightened it up and no more play. My problem is where do I go from here? The chuck has never been ground in as it's beyond the seller or my experience, so how would I even get a clue as to how I could even judge if this thing is worth it or not? He's asking $600 and it has nothing with it, no hub puller, no spare parts and only the wheel that's on it which who knows what it is.
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I have not run one of those machines, but have read and have been told that they are pretty crude. Light weight also does not help. Looking at one closely made me agree. Also single phase. My takeaway was that it is difficult to get a good finish with such a machine. Again, no personal experience running one here.
 
Gee Wiz you guys. After reading this thread I am wondering if it is possible to find a decent used SG?
 
The real problem is that surface grinders live a tough life in a gritty environment. They are often ridden hard and put to bed wet. I searched for a surface grinder for a LONG time and never found a used one that was worth buying at a price I could afford. I finally got one from benmychree which was not running and had a known bad spindle, so there goes my credibility. John told me the truth about it as a seller should, and was obviously telling me all he really knew about the grinder. Sometimes, vetting the seller can be at least as important as vetting the machine...
John passed the test. And so did the grinder. It needed just about what I thought it would based on my inspection and on John's honest shared knowledge of the grinder.

There really are a lot of junk surface grinders out there, watch out.
 
I think it is really important to not go out alone looking at machines that we are not qualified to inspect for purchase. The name for that person is "sucker." The smart thing to do is to find and befriend somebody(s) who really have the experience and knowledge to evaluate machinery, and take that person with you to look at hopeful candidates. Not only that, but two sets of eyes and two brains do a better job of inspection, and the extra expert person helps a bunch when it comes time to talk reality about the machine and talk turkey about pricing. It is also a good way to develop a friendship that carries on way beyond purchasing the machine.
 
Janderso said:
Gee Wiz you guys. After reading this thread I am wondering if it is possible to find a decent used SG?
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The other side of it, Jeff, is that a surface grinder is not really a necessity in nearly all of our hobby shops. If we keep that firmly in mind, we will not get frustrated and buy junk just before a nice one come on the market at a good price. Patience!
 
I don't have the luxury of having somebody go with me. I wish I did. As a mechanic I can only do my homework and get some understanding of what to look for. A hobby size SG like the second one I looked at I've learned from my Chinese lathe and Tiawanese mill drill that you can take nothing for granted. And even my old Atlas 7b, just 'cause it's old iron doesn't mean it can't have stuff wrong. There is a ton of stuff to take into consideration and the more they want for it, the more I expect it to be perfect. All three machines cost me less than $1200 so I guess you can say I got what I paid for.

But I see where folks paid $3k for one and found stuff wrong so I'm trading $$ for elbow grease, getting use and projects done. But when you start talking about the leap in precision I'm looking for it's going to take a while to find the right machine. It helps to have a clue thanks to all the stuff I've been able to gather online.

BTW, there have been threads where folks have said the little grinder was owned by an old toolmaker and made some fantastic stuff with it. So I was willing to treat like my mill drill. There's all kinds of folks decrying the round column and those of us it works just fine for.
 
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