Boyar-Schultz 612

I think a lot also depends on what type of work you plan on doing on a particular piece of equipment. Yes, sometimes we don't know exactly what we might end up doing, but holding out and waiting for that perfect one at the perfect price might not always be the best idea... sometimes it's best to buy that worn one that will do most of the work you plan on doing for a good price and if later on you need something more you can look for that perfect one and sell the one you started with.

I know everybody's situation is different, but for me I'm retired and enjoy refurbishing machines. I picked up my SG for $200 and if it didn't work out I would have sold off the magnetic chuck and components and sold the machine for scrap (~1400 lbs of CI) and most likely would have at least gotten my money back or more. Is it a perfect machine? No, but so far it's done everything I want it to do and it is running fine and I know I could get several times my money back out of it now if I decided to sell it and get a better one. Also, good work can be accomplished on worn machinery, but it takes more time, patience, ingenuity and finesse.

So, I'm not suggesting that everyone do the same as I do... only that you should weigh out your situation, time to work on things, what you are planning to do with it and then make a decision what direction to travel.

Good luck,
Ted
 
I always use "IF" when talking about SGs. IF you want to work to millionths (or tenths) then you need a lot of expertise and a good (great?) machine to start with. Some guys just want to grind to half-thou, and you can do that with a pretty beat up one if you don't mind lapping to get a good surface finish.

It is always nice to buy neat tools, but you really need to have a clear idea in mind of what you are going to DO with the tool after you get it. For instance, if you want to make your own Vee blocks and 1-2-3 blocks, you can buy good ones a lot cheaper and with less trouble.

I buy machines to rebuild them. Then use them to develop skills with. Sometime later, maybe even make a few things! My tolerance for a crappy machine is pretty high if I can still make a good machine out of it... So my hobby is more related to millwright than millwork, but it makes me happy! mine cost $2000 and I've spent 80 or so hours on rebuilding the lube system. Not finished yet. When done, the machine will hold to between 15-20 millionths.

BTW It takes man-years of practice to consistently and predictably grind to 20 millionths. If you are grinding to the nearest thou, it can be learned in a small number of man-months, or right away if you have related machining skills.

So if you want to rebuild a SG (it can take about a year of sundays) then get a cheap crappy one. You might even find a good cheap one if you wait ahd look very hard (then is the hobby "looking for a surface grinder"?) If you want to become a home grinder hand with the bulk of time spent learning how to achieve very tight tolerances, you have to spend the money on a 'great' machine in the first place. It really is up to you.

Sorry for the 'rant'! :oops: :eek 2:
 
That Delta/Rockwell style "toolmaker" surface grinder is light weight. For my experience and needs I would rather have a worn heavy duty grinder than a nearly new toolmaker style. But I can fix a lot of things and know a lot of tricks to work to tight tolerance on a worn machine.

That said, I have heard of many that have them and claim them to be reasonably good machines that can hold tight enough tolerance and leave a good finish for home use. If it is decent shape (sounds like it is), I don't see how wrong you can go for the price. If you gain some experience and later want a better one you should be able to get your money back.

Don't worry about grinding the chuck. You can find several youtube videos on that. Hub puller and a hub wrench is about $80 and readily available.

Remember, ANY surface grinder in your shop is better than no surface grinder!
 
I made a puller on my lathe. Pretty simple and easy part to make. And I make a tool for removing my left hand nut on my mill. Another easy one. I just use a standard face spanner wrench removing the hub.

My point is you don't "need" to buy special tools to support your SG.

Ted
 
I was only suggesting that C-Bag might use the $$ as a bargaining chip if he is interested in the machine. Like Ted, I always prefer to make my own if I have the equipment to do it, but not sure what C-Bag has available.

Also as a reference, I just replaced the cross screw bellows on my Boyar Shultz a couple of weeks ago. McMaster was one of the few that had ones that fit, and they are expensive. Mine was $140 for a single one that extended to 24" that I was able to cut near middle and use for each half of the screw. If I had bought (2) 12" ones from them that would have been over $200 (and I would have had to cut them down anyway).

Either way, buying for $600 and spending some additional known costs for a decent machine, or maybe getting price reduced a little, still does not sound like a bad deal for a starter machine that is close to home.
 
I appreciate the input Dabbler, Bob, Ted and Grandpop. Especially for not burying your foot in me for my waffle whining. Or for totally hyjacking this thread. My apologies to the OP.

The small machine is a little different than the Delta/Rockwell in that it has a cast iron mast for the Z axis and no drive belt but direct drive. There are three or four of those type around and even owners I've read admit they are tough to get a nice finish. 3 of the 4 are going for less than $900 one as low as $300. I've only seen one of the Richyoung type and it's a HF, basically new with not even a mag Chuck and he wants $1500.

From what I can gather Richyoung might be the originator of the design like RongFu with that design of mill drill. And while not perfect knock offs seem to have more problems.

I REALLY appreciate your description of using worn machines Grandpop and some of your methods for dealing with it.

OK, please know I'm a noob, but:

My reasons for looking at a SG were first really wanting a set of precision tool room stones and some ground vise jaws. The stones are hard to spring for at $250+ especially when they are basically $30 stones ground on a SG. Like my other machines it starts with one project and as I get more experience more things pop up.
 
First I’ve only had my sg and tool grinder about 6 months. Bought the sg unseen at a auction 300 bucks with chuck one arbor and wheel that was on it. With all the tools luckily. My main reason was to get more precise and you can’t beat a surface ground finish.
Went through the entire machine including spindle and from what I can measure it’s plenty accurate for my needs. Most of us including me will never get to the capacity of machining and yet measuring in the millionths. So my recommendation is you see one you like. Check it out run a gauge across it, wiggle here and there. Run the spindle. If you like it buy it. I wouldn’t pay a lot just to get a sg. I see them a lot cheaper than 1000 in my neck of the woods.
If it’s not up to snuff after playing with it sell it and get your money back. You will have learned a bunch for the next one.
 
C-Bag said:
I appreciate the input Dabbler, Bob, Ted and Grandpop. Especially for not burying your foot in me for my waffle whining. Or for totally hyjacking this thread. My apologies to the OP.

The small machine is a little different than the Delta/Rockwell in that it has a cast iron mast for the Z axis and no drive belt but direct drive. There are three or four of those type around and even owners I've read admit they are tough to get a nice finish. 3 of the 4 are going for less than $900 one as low as $300. I've only seen one of the Richyoung type and it's a HF, basically new with not even a mag Chuck and he wants $1500.

From what I can gather Richyoung might be the originator of the design like RongFu with that design of mill drill. And while not perfect knock offs seem to have more problems.

I REALLY appreciate your description of using worn machines Grandpop and some of your methods for dealing with it.

OK, please know I'm a noob, but:

My reasons for looking at a SG were first really wanting a set of precision tool room stones and some ground vise jaws. The stones are hard to spring for at $250+ especially when they are basically $30 stones ground on a SG. Like my other machines it starts with one project and as I get more experience more things pop up.
Click to expand...
The spindle is the heart of a surface grinder. Direct drive precision bearing spindles, done correctly, are the best possible setup for home shop size grinders. Mine is belt drive... It works, too, but has a lot more stuff that can mess up the work. A grinder spindle is only as good as the components and care that went into it, and that is when it is new. They go gradually downhill from there after getting some time on them. Cheap bearings and quick and dirty assembly equals junk. High precision bearings and really careful design choices, accurate components, and super fussy assembly makes for a great spindle, but at a high price. Making a spindle as cheaply as possible to sell the grinder at a low cost will show immediately in the work, and will go further downhill relatively rapidly. Proper care of the machine by the operators who use it is critical. Grit is everywhere when a grinder is working, and it is the enemy. Operating with bad seals, missing dust shields, torn bellows, etc., and poor or nonexistent cleanup is a death sentence to a surface grinder.

About the precision flat stones, PM sent...
 
I've been thinking about this thread a lot over the past few weeks, and I want to add something that , in all our enthusiasm, was missed, at least partially.

Let me start by saying when I started doing lathe work 40 years ago, my mentor had me buy a Kinnemetal tool holder and a 3 inserts. The cost was over $200 for this one piece of kit, but he convinced me that if I was going to do carbide it would be "the best" and it is what he used, etc. Nowadays you can buy 4 DCMT0702 tool holders for under 35$ and a box of inserts for just over 6$. There is nothing wrong with either approach, each has its strengths and weaknesses, but it indicates some bias I want to mention.

A bunch of us have chimed in from our experiences and our training to try to help choose a surface grinder. We each have our hobby horses, failures and successes to draw on. I think it is a very wise thing to ask a group like this for help BUT... Be sensitive to our motivations and our biases when learning from our experiences.

When my mentor got me to spend what was the equivalent in today's money of $450 for one tool, I could have bought other vital tools like a micrometer with some of that money, etc. Now I still use that tool and its inserts. it is a fine tool. But I would have learned so much more spending 90$ on a cheaper solution and 200$ on materials and learned some skills by turning chips - and still had some money left over!

So when we say a surface grinder is a 'piece of junk' , our judgement may be based on criteria that doesn't matter to you at all. If you want to learn "proper" skills, it is far easier to use a solid machine with good tolerances, rather than chasing the machine's shortcomings. But some of you simply can't afford to spend $2000 - $4000 to get started (and another $2000 in wheels and tooling BTW)... So if your price bracket is $400, then try to get the best deal you can - expect problems, expect to do fixes, expect lesser accuracy.

If you don't have the machine on the floor, then you can't acquire the skills - The non-existant 'rich hobbyist' can lay down $12000 for a Chevalier, and start grinding, and acquiring skills on a tight machine right away. For the rest of us it is a matter of trading off cost, sweat equity, and accuracy.

If you find a super deal, our advice is trying to make sure that your aren't just throwing away your money. Frankly if the spindle turns, and the table moves evenly, you can still acquire skills with it. You may even rebuild it one day (or resell it). None of us grind enough to ever put any noticeable wear on these machines. You can spend $$$ on a new Chinese machine and still acquire skills with it. You can even do good work on those machines. You won't achieve the 'ultimate accuracy' with them either.

So don't back away from a deal out of 'fear of the unknown'. Buy within your reasonable budget. Know you will need at least 2 wheel adapters at around $200, unless you have the skill and time to make them. Add $25 at least for a diamond and a diamond block for dresssing it. You will need at least 2 - 1/2" wheels in AO in hardness H or I to get started. You should start by getting some heat treated metal to learn how to get good finish: Soft metals are very tricky to grind properly. All this should set you back about another $300 on top of the machine, and then you can get somewhere. There's a zillion Youtube videos on grinding, and most of them are very good, and will accelerate your learning.

Good luck with your purchase! (my apologies for the long tirade!)
 
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