Curious to your thoughts . Please keep this un-political as per the forum rules .

Everybody has valid points. There is one point everybody has missed. You have to want to get off your lazy A-- and do something. About 1/2 dozen of my former Scouts took vocational training at the local community collage. They all have jobs and depending on your point of view, they have different opportunities for advancement or maybe dead end. All have been employed since graduation day. The point being that they know what it is like to get dirty or cold. They understand that they have a job to do and are expected to complete it.

Contrast that to what is out there in the job market. I just retired from a very large company. They can't find people to work for them. Good starting wages and VERY good benefits. The problem is that they expect you to show up for work and even worse is to do some work while you are there. The New Hires is what they are called. They are very good playing with their phones. Holding a screwdriver or wrench, not so good. You would be surprised how many walk off the job at first break on day one (about 2 hours into shift). We do physical work, not sit on a couch.

My boy has been working construction jobs for the last couple of years while going to collage. Currently he puts tombstones in graveyards. He gets cold, wet and tired, but he has a job. I told him years ago when he got really got into Scouts, he couldn't get his drivers license until he got Eagle. He screwed around until he found girls. Got his Eagle in a hurry then. Then he had to find work to support his habit. Quite a few of the parents used that trick and all of their kids turned out real good. Yes, I'm a real SOB. There are jobs available in the Service fields, but you have to put an effort into learning and then doing them. Crawling under a house with spiders to fix a pipe is not appealing to kids today.

You can try to get vocational back in school. I'm afraid that nobody will elect to take it. Have a class on faster Tweeting and there will be standing room only.

Sorry about the rant.
 
Personally I dislike the apprenticeship system as it really is a slave wage environment.
I believe the best way of training up is a full time education with some industry release involved.
Also an apprentice can stay in one company for the duration and only know that companies methods and standards.
We need to change our education system from the ground up, teach the teachers properly, pay them to do a good job.
Its always seemed a bit strange to me that elementary schools have the most overworked and lowest paid teachers and overcrowded classes where if we loose the kids there we have lost them for life but universities have the most overpaid lecturers and the students predominately do their own learning with just a tad of guidance.
The fact that most high schools do not have manual arts to any worthwhile degree so manual dexterity has no place to flourish so many kids do not find that spark.
An area of concern which lead to many high schools removing their metal and wood shops was the problems with work place health and safety, it was easier to scrap than to solve and saved money in the bargain.
Its interesting that in Australia the most well paid jobs appear to be in the trades and most degree holders do not work in their field of study.
We have a large "Technical and Further Education" sector that these days are full of overseas students because that brings in more money.
The high cost of courses is definitely a deterrent to a lot of students who would benefit from the courses and really want to do them.
Short changing the education of your population is a sure fire way of reducing their chances of real work and jobs.
One country that seems to have hit the correct mix is Finland, worth looking at what they do.
 
I have to admit that I didn't rely on the school system to train my son in the "technical arts". The schools in Hawaii had all but done away with shop classes so I took on that job myself. My son can tune and maintain a car, shoot a bow and make everything he needs to do that, work on car electronics and car audio, do wood work, work on motorcycles, fabricate, shoot a camera competently and many other tasks. He's been in "school" with the old man since he was old enough to understand what I've taught him and he has worked alongside me for most of his life when he was living with us. Anything he was interested in that I knew anything about, I taught him. He has worked since the age of 16 and has paid his way for everything he really wanted.

Now he is a man and he is self-reliant, confident and makes a very good living. His friends come to him for help with anything mechanical. His hobbies are building guitars and computers.

So, as Bryan said, the parents are really responsible for what their children learn, both in school and out of school. I am willing to bet that most of the guys here have taught their children as well.
 
It is a great idea and one which will help the country to step back into manufacturing in a meaningful way. 50 years ago when you graduated from high school, you were prepared for a job of some sort at an entry level. 20 years ago you were prepared for more education in college. Today the kids are not even adequately prepared to be an adult.

When I graduated 33 years ago, my high school was a magnet school for the vocational trades. Students were bussed in from all over the county to take classes like, metal working, furniture and cabinet making, construction, technical drawing, welding. We had a computer lab and it was doubled in size the year before I graduated. Today, there are no "shop classes", every student is issued a chromebook every year and they are used in every class. But the students make less money after graduating and go deeper into debt going to college where once they graduate can't find a job and live in mommy and daddy's basement..

But what really needs to happen is making student loans dependent on grades and area of study by letting lending institutions decide who deserves a loan. We already have enough "Doctors of gender and race studies" to last forever. All we have done with student loans is subsidized a university system which is against many of the things which are at the base of our country.
 
My oldest just signed up for middle school, 7th grade here. I was irritated that shop classes were not available, as I enjoyed them at his age and he enjoys learning about building things. I have been teaching him for a while as I want them to have basic dexterity and know how to use tools. I don't plan on letting them drive till they can do basic maintenance and emergency jobs like installing a spare and jump starting. I had to learn a lot of these things the hard way, so I want them to have at least the basics. I'd like them to have a more structured learning experience with a better equipped shop, but I'll have to keep at it myself.

The oldest has basic wood and metal work, hand tools, basic metal lathe operation, electronic soldering, and a little MIG welding. Along with a little programming and computer skills, even a little bit of CAD with TinkerCAD.

When it comes to manufacturing, I'm just an interested hobbyist. I've never worked in a shop professionally. I would like to see more of it done here though. If there is ever an issue with China, I can't see how anything will get made. Outside of hobby and smaller businesses though, I'm not sure I see it happening anytime soon. We'll probably lose all of the experienced professionals to retirement before the systems figure it out and then who will train them?
 
middle.road said:
I desperately wanted to go after an A&P up at Lewis in '79. Couldn't secure a loan for tuition though.
Figured that would be the ticket to see me through until retirement. I see now that wouldn't have worked either.
I know of two gents who are A&P mechanics and worked at McGhee Tyson in Knoxville for a major.
They were RIF'd when they were in their mid fifties. Just when they were getting to the 'sweet' spot in their pension plans.
One is holding down the floor at Home Depot, the other is drive a delivery truck - local.
Click to expand...
Yup, I entered aircraft school in the fall of '80. The airline industry crashed soon after. Where it was typical to have several of the airline rep's come and recruit we never saw one in our two year program. I was committed and through work study made $175mo, was in class from 7am to 2pm then worked in the auto shop and machine shop till 4:30 everyday, 5 days a week. I lived in a camp trailer in a little wide spot in the road for the two years. My space rent was $35 a mo and my propane was $9. I was the only guy in the whole program who got through without a student loan. After 2 semesters with 2 more to go I bumped into a grad who was working at WingsWest, the big Bonanza dealer. He made min wage $7.42hr. There was no way I was going to work for that and have to sign a log. But I hung in there. When I took my practical my instructor was a grad who had worked in the field for 10yrs, he had his AI ticket and was bragging to me he was going back into the field with a commuter airline in Oregon for $10.50hr. I looked at him and said you know what I'm going to do? Work in Yosemite as a customer car mech for $14.50hr Teamsters, and not sign any logs. He was floored.

I could be bitter and say it was wasted time but I learned a lot about what I could do and survive on my own. And it ultimately led me to do what I'm doing now and I'm working for myself making more money than I ever did punching a time clock for folks who never thought I worked fast enough or wanted to pay me what I was worth. So it all worked out and if I hadn't done it I'd not be where I am. Which is not where anybody else would want to be but I'm grateful.
 
The high school here is working toward re building there vocational classes after letting all of it pretty much go away. Welding classes are there hot thing right now as far as metal trades, looks also like they will restart building trades back up soon. I am glad they are reviving these classes not everyone wants or can afford a collage degree
 
We have discussed this before coming at it from different angles like why don't kids want to "make?". And there is this tendency to want to make it a simple problem when it's as complicated as there is individuals involved. We have to dance around the fact it was mandated that schools could only focus on reading writing and math. No "enrichment" like music, art, manual arts like woodshop and metal shop. Not even phys-Ed!!!!! Yeah, reading and writing and math are basic but in my few brushes with managing it has become astoundingly apparent there is somebody for every job and when you are young you have no clue what you want to do. So you need to expose them to as much as possible. I loved my auto shop class and teacher but got I was NOT cut out for being a mech. I hate being under the gun time wise and certain makes of car just annoy me to distraction. But because there was nothing else that appealed I spent the majority of my carreer doing that. And pretty much hated it. I was finally able to jump to building machines rather than fixing cars and was much happier.

I hear what you're saying Bryan but blaming the parents I think is pretty simplistic. When I was young I didn't listen to my parents much. The only thing I took away from them is their work ethic because I didn't do what either of them did.

And how many of those kids parents lost their jobs when the company they worked for decided to move to another state or country? My SIL works for Lego. She was telling me how it was hard because they were moving production to Mexico and their workers were having to train the "new guys" how to do their old job. Oh Lego was going to give the displaced workers a stipend to help transition. But do you think those folks are ever going to trust any company they work for again? Some guys revel in this cowboy attitude and a lot of folks just feel unsettled and unsecure. And it's been used against us for working folks for decades. None of the places I worked for had a retirement plan, few had health benefits. A cowboy amongst a herd of cowboys.
 
savarin said:
An area of concern which lead to many high schools removing their metal and wood shops was the problems with work place health and safety, it was easier to scrap than to solve and saved money in the bargain.
Its interesting that in Australia the most well paid jobs appear to be in the trades and most degree holders do not work in their field of study.
We have a large "Technical and Further Education" sector that these days are full of overseas students because that brings in more money.
The high cost of courses is definitely a deterrent to a lot of students who would benefit from the courses and really want to do them.
Short changing the education of your population is a sure fire way of reducing their chances of real work and jobs.
One country that seems to have hit the correct mix is Finland, worth looking at what they do.
Click to expand...

That reminds me of the old joke: A doctor was having problems with a leaky sink. After trying numerous times to repair it himself he finally called a plumber. The plumber arrived and within a few minutes was able to resolve the problem. He presented his bill to the doctor and the doctor became outraged. The doctor commented "this bill is ridiculous, I'm a brain surgeon, and I don't make that kind of money!! The plumber calmly replied, "I was a brain surgeon as well, that's why I switched careers to become a plumber".

By the way my father also was a plumber (actually a steam fitter), he made a good living but I don't remember him rolling in cash.

Later in life I was working on an industrial construction project in the LA area. I happened across a fairly young plumber who was installing a gas line for one of the machines. We started talking and he began testing my knowledge in the field of plumbing. When asked a question I responded jokingly, "don't fool with me, my father was a plumber and he taught me all there is to know about plumbing". His equally humorous response was "well then tell me all the rules of plumbing". I quickly responded "S**T goes down hill and payday is Friday". His response was " apparently your father didn't like you very well, because he didn't teach you the third and most important rule of plumbing". That rule being "don't bite your finger nails"

Needless to say I was one upped on my own joke. The good thing is that apparently the plumber had relayed the story to his coworkers. That one small incident opened the door to a good working relationship with all the tradesman.
 
Well, mmcmdl, you have hit a raw nerve.

Like projectnut I live in WI, and I am pleased with the revival of technical career training in our schools. They now call shop class "fab lab" as it is oriented toward cnc processes which are becoming universal across many types of manufacturing.

We do expect our schools to prepare people for a lifetime of work and middle road pointed out that even in more stable times this is iffy.

If you want to scare a manufacturer, try these words: "skilled labor". These are the jobs we automate away as soon as the machines are up to it.

Construction has avoided this. Because the industry is seasonal, cyclical, and populated with poorly capitalized small businesses, it has not automated. Those who tried went broke owning expensive, idle machinery in a downturn. It's cheaper to use labor inefficiently when you are busy and lay it off at no cost when you are not. The construction industry can only provide steady work when the labor supply is restricted.

Finally, I'm struck that this is completely a male discussion--writers, role models, boys. The nursing and business classes are filled with girls intent on securing steady jobs. I see this every spring when the paper runs pictures of the graduating classes. I have to admit I don't know what's going on here.
 
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