Going To Buy A Lathe... Thoughts, Input Solicited By Inexperienced Dufus

All right, so now the lathe is here. It will be some time before it's operational. I'm going to give it some TLC, and I'm going to have to complete rebuild the electrics. I'm even going to need to find a Hoffman Enclosure in which to put it all. I may well have to get a new motor. All of these things were understood before purchase. Before I get to all the new info, I want to make sure to give thanks to all who've been so helpful to this point. Ken(4gsr) has been extraordinarily helpful. He even showed up to meet me, but it had taken me a wee bit longer to get there than I had expected, and it was clear that my tire pressure gauge(that I ran around with in the dark last night) is a cheapster, and probably off, or I managed to way mis-read it. Not knowing which, I grabbed it after I got home and sure as heck, it was off by almost double. I thought I had 75psi in each, but I really had around 35. I slow-hauled to Discount Tire on the Southbound side of 77, as Ken suggested, and they fixed me up in about 5 minutes. I offered to pay for the service, but they refused payment. So really, great idea for close air, Ken, and good to know DT is good on customer service. They're usually very good here, in Temple, so I guess I'm not surprised. Just nice to see that every location I've been to, they're quite helpful. So kudos to those guys.

Also, kudos to the guys at Gene's Machine in Victoria. They originally listed the lathe, not the original owner of the lathe apparently, and they didn't realize when they listed it that it wasn't working and would need a ton of repairs. In the end, they sold it to me at a very deep discount from their original listing price, and they were helpful and receptive when I came down for my inspection this past Saturday, and they helped me load out the machine very quickly. I know they're selling a couple other older lathes, and as they behaved and dealt with me throughout this purchase, I'd recommend them.

Ken took a look at the wear on the ways, and it was pretty much like I said, and we noted a few other things. Then I shared with him some news that I got just before pulling in. My wife, a native German, had been doing me the favor of communicating on my behalf with the outfit that still sells parts for these lathes. (They also ask 60 euro for the parts list...) Anyway, they contacted her after I'd provided the serial number to her at their request. It turns out, this was among the very last handful of Martin DLZs ever built. It came originally with the spindle RPM gauge/meter, and it came with an electromagnetic brake. Like many products of that era labeled "made in Germany," final assembly of the last several years worth was actually accomplished in Romania. Who was that, earlier in this thread, speculating as to this point? So anyway, that was interesting, but here's the deal on the electromagnetic brake. It's not part of the official partslist, but they DO have parts for it. Apparently, it was a late production-run change in what turned out to be the last production run of the DLZs.

Given the condition of everything else electrical on this lathe, and given my curiosity, I may have to figure this out. Would it have been an electromagnetic actuator of some sort? I don't have any idea, but it's interesting as heck.

There was some speculation about the motor, and what it would take to replace it. After measuring the mounting again, I'm quite sure that this motor is very close to, if not exactly a 254T frame. I also pulled the sheet metal end cover so I could look at the pulley. I pulled the .625 hex screw and fat flat washer from the end, and looked at the shaft's end. It seems very close to 1.625. The end of the pulley is a little uneven on its ID, but it measured (with the very little bit I could get my caliper on) at 1.642. I'll see if I can pull it off and measure the shaft directly, this weekend. Seems very close to 1.625, so that would make it very much in line with the 254T frame. I'll measure the length of the shaft.

Okay, so that's where I stand at the moment, and again, I want to say "Thank You!" to all who've been so helpful to me here. Lot's of work to do, and lot's of things to figure out. Should be fun!

Now I'm going to kick back and rest a bit. I'm beat.

Mark
 
Okay, so the lathe is bought and home. Obviously some work to do. Is this beginner's forum the appropriate place for where the discussion goes next? If not, where's the best section of these fora to take the discussion? A lot of what comes next will be about electrical, but I'd like to look at it from the "whole shop" approach. Yes, obviously there's a ton of electrical work to be done to this lathe, but I guess I should be taking into account the "whole shop," since I really can start from scratch there. What's the best forum here for that discussion? Again, thanks to all!

Edited to add: I just noticed the shop electrical section. I must not have noticed it the first time I looked. It was too obvious for me, apparently... So I'll start a new thread there. Thanks!
 
Don't be too quick to scrap the motor. Even if isn't in working condition (motors are tougher than they look) consider having it rebuilt.
 
John Hasler said:
Don't be too quick to scrap the motor. Even if isn't in working condition (motors are tougher than they look) consider having it rebuilt.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about that. The problem is that even if it's good, I'm going to have to make a lid/cover for the terminals, because I can't find that style anywhere. I'm going to do some tinkering with it this weekend because I watched a youtube video last night about checking the windings, to get some indication of the serviceability of a motor. Trust me, if I can save the cost of a motor, I'm all over it.

Thanks John!

Mark
 
when Isaid that its instantly reversible I mean the motor not the lathe. of course of the motor reverses then so will the lathe. by design a 3 phase motor is reversible. It just takes swapping 2 of the three power leads any 2 will do. this is done with relays. A single phase motor cant do this you need to let the centrifugal switch reset this needs the motor to slow down. If on my lathe I liftthe handle from full down to full up the lathe keeps running the same direction. bill
 
That lathe was designed with reversing gears in the transmission. So the only reversing of the motor would be to make sure the rotation is correct. Watch for correct operation of anything else wired or mechanically run along with the main motor, such as the coolant pump. Yes, swapping any two power leads will reverse a 3 phase motor.

The only lathe I have run that I can recall with an electric spindle brake was a Kia Seiki turret lathe. The brake was electromagnetic and integral with the main motor. On the end opposite the output shaft, there was a coil and a series of friction discs keyed to a bushing on a secondary shaft stub. Inside the housing, there were steel discs keyed to the housing. Built much like an automatic transmission clutch pack. Electrically, it was connected to a timed contactor. When you switched the power to the spindle off (there was no spindle clutch, you controlled it completely by the main motor electrics), the brake contactor closed for a set time and the spindle brake was applied. It was very quick to stop. Probably a single revolution unless you were running very high spindle rpm. You could tell it slowed a bit if you were running a lot of short time parts, activating the brake every couple of minutes. Eventually, the brake failed and the lathe became a pain to run, having to wait on the spindle to coast down. We sold the lathe to a subcontractor, who as far as I know never fixed it. We really never looked into what exactly failed, but by the noise, I can tell you it was mechanical, not electrical.

That Romanian lathe I was thinking about was badged Edelstaal, but I cannot find any info on the net about it. But then, it was new '79 as I recall, and communism was controlling the plants, and could have been made by anyone I suppose.
 
To know which direction the motor needs to turn. The oil pump only works in one direction. Turn the lathe by hand and watch for oil in the glass bowl on top and you will know which direction the motor needs to turn.
Mine turns counter clockwise.
Martin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Tony Wells said:
That lathe was designed with reversing gears in the transmission. So the only reversing of the motor would be to make sure the rotation is correct. Watch for correct operation of anything else wired or mechanically run along with the main motor, such as the coolant pump. Yes, swapping any two power leads will reverse a 3 phase motor.

The only lathe I have run that I can recall with an electric spindle brake was a Kia Seiki turret lathe. The brake was electromagnetic and integral with the main motor. On the end opposite the output shaft, there was a coil and a series of friction discs keyed to a bushing on a secondary shaft stub. Inside the housing, there were steel discs keyed to the housing. Built much like an automatic transmission clutch pack. Electrically, it was connected to a timed contactor. When you switched the power to the spindle off (there was no spindle clutch, you controlled it completely by the main motor electrics), the brake contactor closed for a set time and the spindle brake was applied. It was very quick to stop. Probably a single revolution unless you were running very high spindle rpm. You could tell it slowed a bit if you were running a lot of short time parts, activating the brake every couple of minutes. Eventually, the brake failed and the lathe became a pain to run, having to wait on the spindle to coast down. We sold the lathe to a subcontractor, who as far as I know never fixed it. We really never looked into what exactly failed, but by the noise, I can tell you it was mechanical, not electrical.

That Romanian lathe I was thinking about was badged Edelstaal, but I cannot find any info on the net about it. But then, it was new '79 as I recall, and communism was controlling the plants, and could have been made by anyone I suppose.
Click to expand...
Tony,
That makes sense even to a dummy like me. As for the electromagnetic brake on this, I have to assume it's inoperative for now. I guess we'll find out. Thanks! Mark
 
Martin W said:
To know which direction the motor needs to turn. The oil pump only works in one direction. Turn the lathe by hand and watch for oil in the glass bowl on top and you will know which direction the motor needs to turn.
Mine turns counter clockwise.
Martin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Martin, I'm fairly confident the direction of rotation on this one will also be ccw. That will be among the things I look at tomorrow.

Thanks!

Mark
 
Mark,

I've read your lathe saga this evening. Congratulations on finding and having the guts to go ahead with the purchase even with the electricals being missing. I have a similar small farm situation and similar size shop area inside my pole barn. Besides the day job, I have been hay farming since the early 80's with very used equipment. By necessity I have made parts and even a main gearbox shaft within the gearbox of a JD pull behind combine. My long owned lathe is a 10" X 36" Clausing. Its size has been adequate for most of what we have needed to make. When I got it in the 80's, a good friend electrical engineer designed the details to convert it to single phase 240 V power (no 3 phase available here). Since then I have acquired a 14" X 36" gap bed Japanese lathe for some of the reasons you spoke of earlier. Like you, I trailered it and loaded and unloaded it myself with a 975 Bobcat. But I could have used one of the bigger tractors with its loader. Maybe you have a neighbor with similar equipment who is willing to help you unload. I doubt your estimated weight of 8,000 lbs if you were running a 4 wheel trailer with 35 psi tire pressure. I think you would have blown out a tire or 2. So my WAG of the machine weight is maybe 5,000 lbs, and even that + trailer dead weight exceeds what that tire pressure would sustain for a 3 hour drive. Point I am getting to is if a good size farm tractor loader is used without the weight of the empty bucket (take the bucket off) and lift with hefty straps from the front cross member of the loader frame (closer to the tractor gives greater lift), you should be able to slightly lift the lathe and then drive the trailer out from under. When moving the tractor and lathe, keep the lathe very close to the ground. Keep the straps straight and not twisted. I lift by placing the straps under the lathe bed, one close to the headstock, and one closer to the tailstock. Move the carriage toward the tailstock, to somewhat balance the load. See that the lift straps are not touching any of the levers or switches and have no interference with the carriage. Use nothing less than the 2" wide straps rated at 10,000 breaking strength. I would use 2 such straps at each end of the lathe bed. I see by your early photos, the seller used chain for lifting. I much prefer straps, much less likely damage to the machine, and they are much less likely to slip sideways than chain. As another poster pointed out, a lathe is top heavy, so lifting from the bed makes good sense. If you unload before your dolly cart is built, you can move the lathe on a dirt or gravel surface by laying down a couple of 2 x 10 planks on the dirt (space them apart maybe 10-12") cut some scrap 1 1/4" water pipe into 30 to 36" lengths , 6 pieces or more spaced about 1 ft apart perpendicular to the parallel planks, place another pair of 2 x 10 on top to the pipes and set the lathe on top of the "pipe sandwich". Working alone, I pull the machine forward using a come-along between a pole barn pole and the lathe foot. Do not pull from the bed with this setup. If you need to turn the lathe, just begin setting the pipes at a bit of an angle to the lower planks (kind of like steering it into place). As you inch forward, a pipe comes out from the back, you then put it at the front of the pull. It is easier to do, than it is to explain.

For the jack screws on your planned dolly, 2 possible suggestions: 1) If you have commercial scaffolding wheels available (with screw thread adjustments) they work very well. 2) 1/2" threaded rod or bolts may carry the weight, but I have had too many fail by bending or snapping off. 3/4" bolts or threaded rod is the smallest I would use for this application. Your farm machinery dealer parts dept might have the grade 5 threaded rod 36" long in stock. Our CNH dealer has the threaded rod selection out on the display floor.

Work slowly and carefully on this phase of the project, you'll do well.

Paul in MN
 
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