Help me understand what to do next, bicycle shifter woes

[WobblyHand]

Good to hear your bike is back in running form!

For your next maintenance project: check chain elongation. Note: most people say "chain stretch", but in reality, they don't actually stretch. They elongate because of wear between the pins and rollers, thus making the chain longer.

To check elongation, measure pin to pin distance over 12" length. If you have some 12" calipers, that would be ideal. This video is short and explains the process well...

Chain was replaced about three years ago. Only got about a real year of use. At the moment only have 6" calipers, but I do have a 12" ruler, so that will have to do. I'll check the chain tonight.

 

[LunaticEssence]

As for the suggestion of cleaning the current shifter in an ultrasonic cleaner, that might be worth a shot if you're comfortable with giving it a try. Just be sure to do some research or ask for guidance to avoid any potential damage.

 

[Mauzinette]

I’ve had somewhat similar issues in the past and what worked for me was switching to Yokozuna compressionless cable housing.

This miracle cable housing was rather expensive, but so would have been replacing the Campagonolo shifters that my LBS had deemed unusable.

Personally, I wouldn’t dump a modern brifter into an ultrasonic cleaner before having tried pretty much everything else.

 

[woodchucker]

ultrasonic cleaners destroy bearings... if the derailer has bearings in the little idler sprocket, not a good idea.

 

[Shiseiji]

Former bicycle coop volunteer mechanic here. It's been a couple of years now, had to move and no place nearby niw to volunteer.

First, all the factory Shimano documents are written for assembling a bike, and can be down loaded. Get the ones for your shifters and derailleur. The one for the shifter will show how the boot goes on, but IIRC it just peels down. It has to be done to replace the cable and housing so generally they aren't that complicated, though the cheap ones can be a PIA sometimes. You can also just try spraying aerosol Tri-Flow in them as a quick flush.

"Worn out" can also mean "I don't want to fool with your old 10 speed. Post covid the bicycle supply chain is still a mess.

Lets test a couple of basics. The first test is "usually " indicated as needed by a delayed shift, but not always and is a |Good|Quick|Cheap| start on troubleshooting.

The cable housings are plastic lined. The one that connects to the rear derailleur will always show wear first because it has the sharpest bend. The wear manifests as drag and that will effect shifting, especially with the paddle shifters. Quick test that only works on the rear derailleur but will tell you what you need to know about your cable housings/cables.

On the stand, get the bike into 1st gear. Then without peddling, move the shifter to 10th removing all the cable tension. Now that last section of cable housing is loose. Run it up and down the cable, feeling the drag. Now check the first section. If they are different, then the housings are worn. If they are worn, put some Tri-Flow in the housings and run the cables back and forth to pull the lubricant all the way through. It buys you some time to replace the housings and cables. Most often a bike shop will try to help a patron not be penny foolish and will simply say "You need new cables."

After the housings are re-installed, put the shifter into 10th, rotate the pedals shifting to 1st then back to 1st.

Check there is a very small deflection in the cable indicating a very small amount of slack. If not, that's a problem and will cause shifting issues. Since the chain wasn't falling off the bike in 1st gear we can reasonably assume the low end limiting screw is OK.

What we need is for the derailleur on the limiting screw, not hanging on the cable. Release the cable tension, and move to the back of the bike. Look at the top derailleur gear/pulley wheel. Is it parallel with 10th gear? If not adjust the limiting screw until it is and re-secure the cable with just the tiny amount of slack.
Run through the gears. If it under-shifts, simply rotate the barrel adjustor while peddling until the chain goes onto the next cog. If it over-shifts, same deal. Rotate the barrel adjustor the direction you need the chain to go. What we have done is fine tune the length of the cable using the barrel adjustor.
(Edited to revise sleep deprived order of operations and mis-named components.)

 

[Shiseiji]

Chain was replaced about three years ago. Only got about a real year of use. At the moment only have 6" calipers, but I do have a 12" ruler, so that will have to do. I'll check the chain tonight.

I meant to look at your reply to this. Sorry. Another note. If the chain was not replaced before it hit the maximum 1/16" over 12" pin to pin wear, and a ruler will work fine, then is is possible, and likely, the worn chain will be mated to worn cogs on the gear cluster and chain rings. So it's quite possible that while the derailleur is fine, the shifting problem is that the chain can't cleanly release from one cog to another. To add a little more about chain wear.


What is being measured is the wear that can't be seen to the hole in the inner link the pin passes through as mentioned. The acceptable elongation is not to exceed 12-1/16" pin to pin and if you are even close the cogs and chain ring have started to be effected. Sadly what needed to be measured is the old chain. "But" that's not all.

The rollers roll on swedging, not the pin and the swedging will also wear. That can only be checked with a chain wear tool that will push two rollers apart to see what that gap is checking the wear on the swedging. Some really old school mechanics won't believe the gauge "Because the ruler shows the chain to be just fine." They don't understand there are two wear points.

Unless the cogs and chain ring are really worn, this can be hard to detect by eye and there isn't a gauge that can be used. The best eyeball check is to see if the cogs, use the range in the center where people generally ride the most, have developed what's often called a "shark fin."

Put a piece of paper behind the cogs and see how they compare to 1st & 10th usually least used cogs. One other test is to use a length of newish chain, hang it over the rear of the cogs, then lift up on the lower end and as it "un-peals" from the cogs see if it tends to catch and start to rotate the cogs rather than detach. Here is a "borrowed" picture of a really bad one. The image is cached somewhere on the 'net: The broken link is to a bike DIY site so I hope they won't be too bothered.



I'm going to back way up for a minute and share my general bike pre-ride assessment and troubleshooting guide.
A- Air. No air we can't ride. Quick advise. If you don't know how to clock your tire, look it up. Makes finding a leak and as importantly if what caused it is still in the tire, much easire.
B - Brakes. Bad brakes will equal a bad day.
C - Chain and Cables. No chain is just a coster bike. The brake pads may be good and properly adjusted, but if the cables aren't working properly, see "B" above.
D - Derailleur. No derailleur, and we have a hard to pedal single speed.
And of course the shifters that operate the derailleur. Our check earlier of the cables may have given us something to start checking.

Quick note if you don't know. The housing for the shifters is differant than the brake housing. The shifter housing has wire that runs parallel to the cable. Indexing shifters can't tollerate, the tollerance is too loose, cable housing compression. The cable must start to move as soon as the shifter moves. Brake cable housing are coiled as the brake leavers will overcome the compression of the housing. Highly unlikly due to the type shifter you have they got mixed up. The quick way to tell is the completly release the rear derailleur cable and slide off the last housing section and look at th end. You should see a bunch of wire ends, not the, hopfully when it's a brake cable, beveled end of a coil.

Ron

 

[WobblyHand]

I meant to look at your reply to this. Sorry. Another note. If the chain was not replaced before it hit the maximum 1/16" over 12" pin to pin wear, and a ruler will work fine, then is is possible, and likely, the worn chain will be mated to worn cogs on the gear cluster and chain rings. So it's quite possible that while the derailleur is fine, the shifting problem is that the chain can't cleanly release from one cog to another. To add a little more about chain wear.


What is being measured is the wear that can't be seen to the hole in the inner link the pin passes through as mentioned. The acceptable elongation is not to exceed 12-1/16" pin to pin and if you are even close the cogs and chain ring have started to be effected. Sadly what needed to be measured is the old chain. "But" that's not all.

The rollers roll on swedging, not the pin and the swedging will also wear. That can only be checked with a chain wear tool that will push two rollers apart to see what that gap is checking the wear on the swedging. Some really old school mechanics won't believe the gauge "Because the ruler shows the chain to be just fine." They don't understand there are two wear points.

Unless the cogs and chain ring are really worn, this can be hard to detect by eye and there isn't a gauge that can be used. The best eyeball check is to see if the cogs, use the range in the center where people generally ride the most, have developed what's often called a "shark fin."

Put a piece of paper behind the cogs and see how they compare to 1st & 10th usually least used cogs. One other test is to use a length of newish chain, hang it over the rear of the cogs, then lift up on the lower end and as it "un-peals" from the cogs see if it tends to catch and start to rotate the cogs rather than detach. Here is a "borrowed" picture of a really bad one. The image is cached somewhere on the 'net: The broken link is to a bike DIY site so I hope they won't be too bothered.

View attachment 475278

I'm going to back way up for a minute and share my general bike pre-ride assessment and troubleshooting guide.
A- Air. No air we can't ride. Quick advise. If you don't know how to clock your tire, look it up. Makes finding a leak and as importantly if what caused it is still in the tire, much easire.
B - Brakes. Bad brakes will equal a bad day.
C - Chain and Cables. No chain is just a coster bike. The brake pads may be good and properly adjusted, but if the cables aren't working properly, see "B" above.
D - Derailleur. No derailleur, and we have a hard to pedal single speed.
And of course the shifters that operate the derailleur. Our check earlier of the cables may have given us something to start checking.

Quick note if you don't know. The housing for the shifters is differant than the brake housing. The shifter housing has wire that runs parallel to the cable. Indexing shifters can't tollerate, the tollerance is too loose, cable housing compression. The cable must start to move as soon as the shifter moves. Brake cable housing are coiled as the brake leavers will overcome the compression of the housing. Highly unlikly due to the type shifter you have they got mixed up. The quick way to tell is the completly release the rear derailleur cable and slide off the last housing section and look at th end. You should see a bunch of wire ends, not the, hopfully when it's a brake cable, beveled end of a coil.

Ron

All good stuff Ron. I haven't looked at my bike since October, to be honest. Got the brifters to work simply by using a lot of WD40 to clean out a decade of hardened lube. Haven't changed the cables yet, but I have a new set from Shimano. Might change them, oh in a couple of months, maybe March or April. Here in S. NH, there's snow and ice on the ground, so haven't been thinking about riding. I may have issues due to WD40 itself, but in late October the braking shifters were working fine. So far my outlay has been around $30, for the Shimano cables, as opposed to the ridiculous $700+ I was quoted for repairs (and a downgrade, since no one makes 10 gear cassettes in Ultegra grade).

I'll inspect the chain for sure. Have a 12" caliper that I can use. Of course I'd wager one could use a smaller span and weight the allowable error and be fine.

 

[Shiseiji]

All good stuff Ron. I haven't looked at my bike since October, to be honest. Got the brifters to work simply by using a lot of WD40 to clean out a decade of hardened lube. Haven't changed the cables yet, but I have a new set from Shimano. Might change them, oh in a couple of months, maybe March or April. Here in S. NH, there's snow and ice on the ground, so haven't been thinking about riding. I may have issues due to WD40 itself, but in late October the braking shifters were working fine. So far my outlay has been around $30, for the Shimano cables, as opposed to the ridiculous $700+ I was quoted for repairs (and a downgrade, since no one makes 10 gear cassettes in Ultegra grade).

I'll inspect the chain for sure. Have a 12" caliper that I can use. Of course I'd wager one could use a smaller span and weight the allowable error and be fine.

Too funny, I lived in Milford for 7 years. Water Displacement formula 40 does just that, and leaves a film behind that gets sticky. I suggest you purge the WD-40 with Liquid Wrench or Tri-Flow with PTFE. I use it for lots of things, but not these situations. The other two products will evaporate, leaving the PTFE behind. When you replace the cables, put just a small daub of grease in the ends of the housings as a water barrier.

The brifters actually in my experience are pretty robust, so am not surprised. I take exception with the ultrasonic cleaner and bearings. Bike comes in for a "tune-up" after checking for wear it would get taken off the bike and thrown in the cleaner along with the derailleur.

If you like, drop me a message with your email and I'll send you my bike maintenance syllabus/ detailed handout. The basics haven't and probably won't change for a long time. It covers clocking the tire. I've found glass embedded in a tire that would re-perforate the inner tube when hit just right. We could have flexed the whole inner tube, but clocking the tire told me exactly where to look. I strongly suggest NOT running your finger around inside the tire. Your finger can be perforated as easily as the inner tube LOL.