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Logan 10" Lathe rear-spindle tightness?

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ErichKeane

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#1
Hi all-
I purchased a 10" Montgomery Ward lathe, which was made by Logan. It is an early 1950s from everything I can tell. I had the buyer do a test-cut to show it worked, but it was with aluminum.

I moved it with a buddy, but at one point attempted to remove the cloth flat belt by disassembling the drive-spindle. I loosened the two shaft collar allen screws, and tried to tap it out. It was pretty tight, and I only got it to move about 3/4" before giving up and reassembling it. I didn't notice before hand how difficult it was to move that spindle, but it is not very 'free wheeling' at the moment. I can move it by hand, but it stops immediately.

Currently, there is a 1/3HP powerkraft motor on it that smoked when I had it on the small motor pulley to the big-wheel, even with the flat-belt detensioned. When on the bigger of the two pulleys and on the smaller flat wheel, it seems to run the lathe fine, however it stalls pretty easy.

I have a spare 1HP motor that looks like it'll fit that I was going to install, but before doing that I wanted to make sure that I hadn't messed up the spindle!

Thanks!
 

MBfrontier

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#2
Hi, ErichKeane.

Are you talking about the drive countershaft or the spindle being stuck?

I have a Logan 200 and the spindle is removed by taking off the spindle nut on the smaller outboard end of the spindle. it is RH threaded and requires a pin wrench (or other homemade tool) to remove. Remove any set screws that are in the cone pulley (step pulley that the belt rides on), remove or loosen the set screw in the bull gear, remove the three screws in the end bearing cap on the chuck end of the spindle and remove the cap. The spindle is removed toward the tail stock by tapping it with a non-marring hammer toward the tail stock. This is sometimes easier said than done. The bearing on the chuck end comes out with the spindle. There are several videos on Youtube that show the procedure. Here's one of them:

 

ErichKeane

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#3
In that video, he seems to already have the part taken off that I'm talking about...

It is the carriage that sits behind the lathe that has a motor on it and drives the flat-belt. It has a large 2-part wheel (that the v-belt drives), then the casting, then the cone pulley, then a shaft collar, then the other side of the casting, then another shaft collar.
 

MBfrontier

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#4
OK. You are talking about the countershaft.

By loosening the highlighted set screws, the whole shaft will come out. You may need to remove the shroud around the countershaft drive pulley or remove the drive pulley from the shaft. After the assembly is removed and the pulley is removed from the drive box, the collars with oilless bearings should slide right off. A typical issue is the user will overtighten the countershaft set screws which collapses the bearings around the countershaft causing heating issues and wear around the countershaft. Please don't ask me how I know. Hope this helps.

1514314983496.png
 

ErichKeane

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Thanks for the image. Mine actually doesn't have the 'drive box', it is actually a separate assembly. I don't actually have a shroud around it either, it seems to be from before that was a thing.

That said, I DO have a spot on the top of each bearing-area that could possibly be a set screw. They are down pretty low, and don't look very hex-shaped, but hopefully a bit of cleaning will make it obvious.

Thanks!
 

MBfrontier

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#6
I assumed your MW Lathe was similar to a Logan 200 because that's the title of your post.

Here's another view of the drive box assy. which shows the forks that the set screws go through that tighten into recesses in the bearing caps. If you have similar forks loosening the set screws will take the countershaft out.

1514317011974.png
 

ErichKeane

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#7
I assumed your MW Lathe was similar to a Logan 200 because that's the title of your post.
Yeah, sorry about that... this is my first foray into lathes, so I am having trouble figuring out the terminology. I'm actually having a difficult time figuring out exactly which Logan lathe it matches up to. I'm at the office, but this looks very similar to the one I have: https://www.k-bid.com/auction/21783/item/48?offset=48

Mine is in way better shape, but it also has a motor unit behind it that other than the belt, is completely unattached. At the moment, both are bolted to a table.
 

MBfrontier

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#8
No apology necessary. Here's a picture of the drive box on the Logan 200 Lathe. Pictures help a lot when asking questions about the type of machine and needing help working on things. I'll be watching this thread to see if I can contribute any assistance.

IMG_1058.JPG
 

CluelessNewB

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#9
Most (maybe all) of the Montgomery Wards branded Logan's don't have a full belt cover so the drive assembly is a bit different, there is a lever to tension the belt rather than using the cover. There are a few older Logan and Wards Powr-Kraft documents over on the Vintage Machinery site that may help you identify your lathe. Last but not least the Logan web site FAQ is a wealth of knowledge. From the serial number Scott Logan can probably identify what model it is (assuming the bed matches the other parts). You can also order a manual from Logan: http://store.lathe.com/machinemanuals.html

Logan Listings at Vintage Machinery: http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=2093&tab=3
Wards Listings at Vintage Machinery: http://www.vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=657&tab=3
Logan FAQ: http://www.lathe.com/faq/index.html
 

ErichKeane

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#10
Yes, that is exactly what I have! With the lever to adjust belt tension. I can't find the exact model there (74TLC-2130), but the 2130 is listed in a bunch of the catalogs in the right place as some sort of 2130R.

I suspect it is all original, since the owner got it from his Grandfather (who bought in 1955), and only replaced bearings since. It came with a good amount of stuff, but I've yet to get it running right yet :)
 

Nogoingback

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#11
Like MBfrontier, my lathe is a Logan 200. But the Logans used bronze bushes on the countershaft so it's pretty likely that your machine has
them as well. If the shaft is binding, then it would be a good idea to sort it out.

Your 1/3 HP motor is a little light for a 10" Logan. 1/2 to 3/4 is more like it. Make sure that any motor you use runs the same RPM.

Can you post a picture of your setup?
 

ErichKeane

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#12
Here are some pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/RUDrTT5vsaNgpmUJ3

I'm not thinking the shaft is binding, just was wondering how much it should free-wheel. I can turn it by hand with a really strong single-finger, but as soon as I stop, so does it. The 1/3 HP motor is of questionable condition, but it cannot turn the lathe in the hardest conditions. I DO have a 1 HP motor that I am going to try to install, which will hopefully fit.
 

ErichKeane

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#13
Update! I tossed the 1 HP motor on it, and added oil to all of the brass bearings I could see, and it seems to work just fine! It runs smoothly it seems. Now to learn how to use it :)

Since it was the original motor (a 1/3 motor), I suspect somewhat that it was pretty worn out. I didn't check for condition (since it is 30 degrees out right now!), but it didn't spin great by hand.
 

Nogoingback

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#14
Glad to hear it's running OK for you. 1 HP will be plenty for that lathe: Logans, and I assume your lathe came with 1/3 or 1/2 HP motors.
It's also nice to see you have a QCTP with it though it looks like a BXA, which normally is too large for a 10" Logan. Did you buy it, or
did it come with the lathe?
 

ErichKeane

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#15
It IS a BXA, it came with the lathe, it is an Aloris brand with a bunch of tool holders. It defintely seems very stable.
 

Nogoingback

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#16
Aloris is a good quality tool post, with a price to match, but BXA's are too big for a 10" Logan. If you place a tool in one of the tool
holders and run the adjustment as low as it will go, compare where the tip of the tool is relative to the centerline of the spindle. (A
dead center in the spindle will help see this.). The tip of the tool must be no higher than the spindle centerline: if it's higher the tool
post is a no go. I think you'll find that that's the case with your lathe. 10" Logans and Wards lathes normally use AXA setups.

The good news is that an Aloris tool post and holders has value, and wouldn't be hard to sell.
 

wa5cab

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#17
One other comment, although it turned out that you were talking about the countershaft and not the spindle. When removing the spindle, you do NOT have to or even need to remove what look like set screws in the step pulley. The one in the middle is an oil plug. You should pull out the direct drive pin so that you can turn the pulley and remove the screw periodically and squirts some of whatever the recommended oil is into the hole, replace the screw and rotate the pulley several revolutions, and repeat once or twice if the lathe has been in pretty frequent service.

The purpose of the other screw no one seems to know. But the one thing that is obviously true is that neither it nor the oil screw can touch the spindle. If it did, the back gears wouldn't work, and worse, you would scar the spindle.
 

MBfrontier

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#18
Glad to hear you are making progress. The pictures help a lot.

It looks like you have a nice machine to get running and play with.

Without any belt tension on the countershaft the shaft should spin free without excessive play between the shaft and bearings.
 

ErichKeane

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#19
The tip of the tool must be no higher than the spindle centerline: if it's higher the tool
post is a no go. I think you'll find that that's the case with your lathe. 10" Logans and Wards lathes normally use AXA setups.
Ok, great, I'll take a look at that.
 

ErichKeane

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#20
Aloris is a good quality tool post, with a price to match, but BXA's are too big for a 10" Logan. If you place a tool in one of the tool
holders and run the adjustment as low as it will go, compare where the tip of the tool is relative to the centerline of the spindle. (A
dead center in the spindle will help see this.). The tip of the tool must be no higher than the spindle centerline: if it's higher the tool
post is a no go. I think you'll find that that's the case with your lathe. 10" Logans and Wards lathes normally use AXA setups.

The good news is that an Aloris tool post and holders has value, and wouldn't be hard to sell.
I just tried it out, and have about 1/8" of room to continue going 'down' after putting the bit at dead center. I confirmed this by raising the cutter while cutting a piece of aluminum until the center 'nub' disappeared.

One thing I DID notice is that the cutter bars are pretty thin, perhaps 3/8" with carbide inserts. I'm not sure what the right size is for it, but they otherwise seem to cut alright.
 

wa5cab

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#21
The reasons that cutter height is important or even critical are many.

But the most important two are that if the cutter is much too low the cutter will tend to dig into the work piece or be pulled. Given that even with all brand new parts there is some backlash in the cross feed screw to nut (the threads must have some running clearance or they will bind). This allows the cross slide to move a few thousandths toward the work. And can sometimes can cause chatter which will result in poor to very poor finish.

If the cutter is too high, the front of the cutter will rub against the work because the cutting edge won't be touching the work. So the cutting edge should almost always be dead "on center". There are relatively inexpensive gauges available that make putting the cutter dead on center easy. The most common style is a plastic block with a bubble level vial in it. The front of the gauge is a 90 deg. "V" with the legs of the "V" in the vertical plane. The "V" touches the work above and below center. The bottom of the rear of the gauge bisects the "V" and rests on top of the cutter. To use, you hold the "V" against the work and the bottom of the rear down against the top of the cutter, and raise or lower the cutter to center the bubble.

370592279135 on eBay is a cheap example. 25276252479 is a better one (I have one of these). 252762525452 is a different way of doing it. This might be used with a collet setup if the work was for example too short to use the front "V" type on. I have one of these, too.

Anyway, however you do it, the BXA is just too large for your lathe. You should as soon as you can switch to an AXA. If you are a little lucky, you might find someone with a 14" who has an AXA set that he would swap for your BXA set.
 

ErichKeane

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#22
I understand that, but even with the BXA, I can place the cutter below the center axis by about 1/8". I have adjustability to be significantly above, as well as below, so I guess I'm still missing what switching to a AXA will get me?
 

Bob Korves

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#23
I understand that, but even with the BXA, I can place the cutter below the center axis by about 1/8". I have adjustability to be significantly above, as well as below, so I guess I'm still missing what switching to a AXA will get me?
You might get into trouble if you put a 1/8" smaller shank cutter into the holder, but it is quite possible to shim them up to a workable height. Still, the advantage of the QCTP is the Q for quick. Make sure you have a setup where you can get the tool to the work as quickly as possible, all things considered.
 

wa5cab

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#24
If you use it much, you will soon find that you just about can't have too many of the 201 or 202 holders. And the 101 and 102 are cheaper. I have about 15 of them, almost all of which always have a cutter of some sort in them.
 

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#25
I understand that, but even with the BXA, I can place the cutter below the center axis by about 1/8". I have adjustability to be significantly above, as well as below, so I guess I'm still missing what switching to a AXA will get me?
You may run into problems with other tools. Have you put a part off tool in to check the height on that? I'm curious about the possibility
that your toolholders were modified as well. I ask because the compounds on Logans are known to be
a little high as it is. On my machine, with an AXA, a Dorian cutoff holder is too high by about 1/16" (though the standard Phase II holder
works). But anyway, if the setup works on your machine, that's all that matters. It's good to know your machine is up and running.
 
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