MQL cutting fluids (no oils)

Shotgun

Shotgun

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We had a recent discussion on cutting oils. A lot of good talk there. But, it led me to wanting to use something different in my mist sprayer.

I currently use Jancy Slugger. It does improve my cut, but the cutting action creates a fog that leaves me with a sore throat and has me hawking snot for two days after. The bottle indicates that you really shouldn't be breathing it, but here I am standing over a manual machine trying to get a good look at what I'm doing in a shop with the door closed to keep out the cold. I've gotta be smarter than this, y'all. It's so bad, that I've resorted to just using an air spray. No coolant at all.

So, now I'm looking for alternatives. The new kid on the block is MQL (minimum quantity lubrication), which for the life of me looks like nothing more than a mist sprayer. But, the lubricants are vegetable oil based. Supposedly, food grade. I'm sure that is "McDonalds food grade", but that is still a big step above whatever concoction the typical water soluble fluid has.

They are expensive compared to others, but my quart of Slugger has lasted a couple years (and I still have some). $100 doesn't seem that high over a couple years, if I'm able to enjoy the hobby more. The two I'm consider are:

and

Does anyone have any experience with either one? Or is there another that I should be considering. My first criteria is how healthy it is for the person (me) standing over the machine, and the others fall behind that.
 
One problem with evaluating something like this is knowing that what is sold in the bottle is food grade, but the mist you generate in your shop can be anything but. Under the extreme pressure and heat of the cut, those molecules break apart somewhat randomly and recombine into intermediates that eventually react out with air forming all sorts of other stuff that's not part of the product you bought. We know all about n-nitrosamines from some recently phased out CNC coolants, which are aggressively carcinogenic (guanine adducts, alters DNA on contact). We don't know what happens in your shop under your conditions, though- so we're back to fume evacuation and ventilation as the best practice. Not trying to scare you, just saying the manufacturer will call a product safe insofar as what they've packaged and sold, not what happens after you open the bottle.
 
I don't understand all those words, but what I got out of it was:
blah, blah, blah. . . don't go around sniffing chemicals you know nothing about. . . blah, blah, blah
Is that close enough?
I've been trying to think of a solution to shop ventilation that does not involve drilling a hole through the wall.
But, I think I'm just going to have to drill a hole through the wall.
 
pontiac428 said:
One problem with evaluating something like this is knowing that what is sold in the bottle is food grade, but the mist you generate in your shop can be anything but. Under the extreme pressure and heat of the cut, those molecules break apart somewhat randomly and recombine into intermediates that eventually react out with air forming all sorts of other stuff that's not part of the product you bought. We know all about n-nitrosamines from some recently phased out CNC coolants, which are aggressively carcinogenic (guanine adducts, alters DNA on contact). We don't know what happens in your shop under your conditions, though- so we're back to fume evacuation and ventilation as the best practice. Not trying to scare you, just saying the manufacturer will call a product safe insofar as what they've packaged and sold, not what happens after you open the bottle.
Click to expand...
^^^This^^^^

Look up popcorn lung that the vape kids using veggie oil base vape juice get.

Honestly short of hogging aluminum (WD40) I rarely use coolant and when I do it is to save on exotic cutter life or for a finish pass.

At home I'm using Micro Mark Micro flow coolant, seems to work OK and does not leave a sticky mess behind.
 
Inhaling any aerosol/mist, food grade or not can be hazardous: think of the thin oil film that is on your workpiece & machine coating the surface of your lungs.

Spend the money saved on doctor’s & hospital bills on a quiet air compressor and cold gun: blows the chips clear and cools the tool & part.
 
RaisedByWolves said:
^^^This^^^^

Look up popcorn lung that the vape kids using veggie oil base vape juice.
Click to expand...
Hmm, as far as I was aware, popcorn lung (bronchiolitis obliterans) in vapers was (when and if it occured) was a result of vape juice manufacturers using diketones like diacetyl in their juices to produce a sweet creamy flavour (arguably the other two oft-used diketones, acetyl propionol and acetoin are safer but there are situations where they can degrade to form diacetyl).

Diacetyl was the food flavouring that, used in powdered form without any PPE in popcorn factories, led to the occupational health scandal that gave the disease its colloquial name.

In the EU (and in the UK so far) diacetyl is banned for use in vape juice. I'm guessing in the US, it might be a state thing.

Vegetable glycerin and/or propylene glycol, which are the main bases for vape juices might have some effect leading to greater levels of inflammation in lung cells but no study yet has shown any significant health issues down to just these chemicals. Vaping is certainly a lot safer than smoking (Public Health England said conservatively 95% safer) and on hearing any organisation claim otherwise the listener should ask themselves cui bono? ;)

Vaping has almost certainly saved a lot of people from the inevitable smoking related diseases that result from a lifetime of smoking.

Of course, only smokers who want to give up smoking should vape, nobody should be vaping except as a substitute for tobacco.

Sorry for the little rant/lecture. I've seen both big tobacco and big pharma do their very best to try to shut vaping down over the past 10 years via disinformation and dubious studies.
 
I agree with most of the issues. If you cannot cut dry to nearly dry then .... Venting is the best, but it is difficult if you do not have an enclosure for the cutting process. But that is not the half of it. Just hanging a vent pipe near by helps, but when chips are flying away at a distance and then the smoke is still coming off of these chips just having a hanging vent is not going to get that distant smoke. Also, it turns out you need a lot of air flow up that vent in order to vacuum up much smoke. Without the enclosed environment the next best will either be a good activated carbon mask like those used by auto painters, a mask with an clean air source pumped in, or lastly a very large vent pipe.... like the size of a home furnace cold air return being driven by a large blower/sucker.

Some of the more expensive cutting oils that one can buy actually are designed to have a low temperature vapor point so that the heat is taken up quickly by the latent heat capacity of the material changing from a liquid to a vapor. Since the expensive stuff is going to be used in a CNC style closed cabinet machine there is less effort put into making the resultant vapors safe. Not thinking this through I when I first started I purchased some of the most expensive stuff made by the big chemical companies and when I use it I was driven right out of the room by the fog and stink. After it was used it was also sticky and a real mess to clean out of my automatic pump system. Water is the only safe thing to use but then the rust....

Shotgun said:
don't go around sniffing chemicals you know nothing about. . . blah, blah, blah
Is that close enough?
I've been trying to think of a solution to shop ventilation that does not involve drilling a hole through the wall.
But, I think I'm just going to have to drill a hole through the wall.
Click to expand...
So, it has to be a big hole to get a lot of air though it (velocity) and a big blower/motor to have any pressure differential. Remember the current (flow) (velocity and volume) x pressure = power (required). It is just like electricity: Current x voltage=power. I Though of using ducting and blower like you find in a home's force air furnace. These have high volume at low pressure, but would probably work, but needs a big hole in the side of the house/basement..... and will I need a way to clean the gunk off the side of the house that accumulates..... Ever look at any of the vents that come out of restaurant's kitchens?

WRT to the blah, blah, blah... Think about the oil, corn oil, seed oil, olive oil, that you cook with. Once heat is applied to it it changes from a safe material to a brown or black substance that is stuck to the skillet! Animal fat, like that on bacon is even worse. What ever that brown or black stuff is it is no longer what it was and so may no longer be "safe". They say not to eat the blackened fat on a steak that has been grilled!! But... it seems that the steak tastes a lot better when grilled than if it were just heated up in a microwave and no flame!

Chemist do their work in a venting hood for a good reason. These are designed so that no air flows out the front opening towards the user.

So I see no easy "small scale" solution. Nevertheless, I am still contemplating putting in a 4" hanging flexible vent pipe and running it to the hole in the basement window! It is probably better than NOTHING.

Dave L.
 
Wear a good face mask, rated for vapors & solvents (like the guys that spray cars use).
 
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