My 9" Seneca Falls lathe carriage needs some help

That is a really nice looking lathe. i grew up with a Seneca Falls lathe in my dads shop. I learned a lot on that lathe.
I Don”t believe the carriage will be too complicated.
if I could give just a little advice, with out trying to be arrogant. HSS tooling may be a better fit for this lathe than carbide. Carbide takes a lot more cutting pressure than high speed steel, is easier on the older spindle.
Martin
 
P-nut, hey there I came across some of your posts a few years ago researching these things- I remember it coming from wife's Grandfather. I work mostly on camera parts which is like big clocks so I could not imagine machine- unless it went a bit faster. I played with pulley sizing but decided not to increase speed much bc I want to baby it and give it to my grandson.

you still have those odd sized dies? My compound is locked from rotating by two small screws that have to be quite tight, I think they are number 8- or M5. I sheared one off last year when tightnening, the head just sheered away. Lucky me, got the shaft embedded and no compound. After a couple weeks of fretting (ok a couple months, I'm 60! ) I took the compound apart got it in my mill vise put an extractor bit into the shaft and ran it backwards - and it popped right out. That felt good.

But nothing fits back in there. An M5 (I think) fits close enough to use w/o serious griping. But I would love the make a good fit and a spare. Any chance I could pay round trip shipping insured and send you a deposit so I could have a go ?
Looking at your machine I believe it's a few generations older than mine. Your apron is similar, but your cross slide is completely different. I believe the 2 screws at the front of the compound rest base on your machine tighten against the cross-slide bloc to lock the tool at the angle desired. My machine uses a single 5/16"? square head bolt on the right side of the cross-slide block to accomplish the same thing. I'm on the road right now guessing from memory at the size. I don't see a locking mechanism similar to yours in any of the catalogs. It may have been an in-house fix. Look on the right side of your cross-slide block to see if there is an open threaded hole for a locking screw.


Here's a link to the Seneca Falls #27 catalog on the Vintage Machinery website. The parts breakdown for your machine starts on page 40. Tha carriage and apron are on pages 42 and 43.


There are a number of other Seneca Falls catalogs available using this link:


Here are a couple pictures of my machine. As you can see the carriage and apron are different. Also, the headstock gear train is enclosed. I believe mine was manufactured in 1916, but I'm not sure.
 

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That is a really nice looking lathe. i grew up with a Seneca Falls lathe in my dads shop. I learned a lot on that lathe.
I Don”t believe the carriage will be too complicated.
if I could give just a little advice, with out trying to be arrogant. HSS tooling may be a better fit for this lathe than carbide. Carbide takes a lot more cutting pressure than high speed steel, is easier on the older spindle.
Martin

Thanks I can use advise, even I don't always deploy it ;-) but I'm learning. I use HSS 99% bc I work with alum, delrin, brass mostly. I did not know Carbide required more power but I do know it costs more!
 
I would agree with Martin. The top speed of these machines is in the 600 rpm to 700 rpm range. The machine is way too slow and probably not rigid enough for carbide to function properly. I primarily use 1/4" and 5/16" HSS tooling.
 
Even though old, it is still a proper bit of precision iron. Consider the odd ding as part of its history, but where the slide rides over them, past the edge, is where you stone them (with a slipstone) so that there is no raised metal to interfere with the slide. Remove burrs, clean up.
Generally, it looks OK, though in need of a checkout. It's been inside, and kept running. Its not a pile of rust!

I happen to have South Bend, and it has a renovation publication. I don't know if there is something similar for Seneca Falls. It's not essential, but at some stage, you will want to get a careful look at everything. You might use a dial gauge to check run-out. At some stage, you might turn on a piece of pipe provided with end closures, welded or glued ends to allow to run between centres. Even if a centre only at the tail end.

Basically a dumbbell shape so you can take a fine cut off the end near the headstock, and without moving on the tool depth at all, get the carriage to the tail end, and continue the same cut, Then measure both with a micrometer, to discover if you are cutting a taper. That lets you adjust the tailstock (there are screws). Once it's cutting straight, you will feel the buzz! :)
sounds solid, thanks. If I'm following you that was one of the first things I did - I had to be hitting dead center with tail stock and when I found those adjusting screws I could see that lathe was a step ahead of me. I still just pop in 2 of my smallest drills .040's and line em up point to point by eye. That gets me quite close. I think you're measuring any sagging of the ways with that test you mention? There is very little runout at chuck, it's been awhile so I forget the indicator mark but I want to say 1/2 a thou, it was well within my envelope, I just work to .001-.003 or less. But when I need a thou it does it. I have a 4 jaw but have not mounted it yet - use it on my rotary table with mill. I need a better chuck this old 5" Cushman is ok but the jaws need a grind, not bad but it bugs me. I'm going to google that slipstone - i thought I had every stone in the world but not one of those. I figured for stoning parts n ways people just used their old dinged up stones! I oil lathe with 2 drops in the caps every day I run it. I have never worried about the bronze bearings bc they are so smooth to the hand. I don't use the backgears often and don't cut threads. But dang, your prob right I should take that thing apart and really clean her up.
 
I would agree with Martin. The top speed of these machines is in the 600 rpm to 700 rpm range. The machine is way too slow and probably not rigid enough for carbide to function properly. I primarily use 1/4" and 5/16" HSS tooling.
Yeah I used 1/4 for years but went to 3/8 recently thinking it would be stiffer when I upgraded to a Quick Change from the my old Lanterns. I don't notice any huge difference with QC and the larger bits, and I've lost amazing visibility of the cutting target.
 
sounds solid, thanks. If I'm following you that was one of the first things I did - I had to be hitting dead center with tail stock and when I found those adjusting screws I could see that lathe was a step ahead of me. I still just pop in 2 of my smallest drills .040's and line em up point to point by eye. That gets me quite close. I think you're measuring any sagging of the ways with that test you mention? There is very little runout at chuck, it's been awhile so I forget the indicator mark but I want to say 1/2 a thou, it was well within my envelope, I just work to .001-.003 or less. But when I need a thou it does it. I have a 4 jaw but have not mounted it yet - use it on my rotary table with mill. I need a better chuck this old 5" Cushman is ok but the jaws need a grind, not bad but it bugs me. I'm going to google that slipstone - i thought I had every stone in the world but not one of those. I figured for stoning parts n ways people just used their old dinged up stones! I oil lathe with 2 drops in the caps every day I run it. I have never worried about the bronze bearings bc they are so smooth to the hand. I don't use the backgears often and don't cut threads. But dang, your prob right I should take that thing apart and really clean her up.
Try eBay, and search "slip-stone". That is just a term for a handy wedge-shaped, stone. They come in all sorts of materials, shapes and sizes, from the hardest finest Arkansas white to every kind of knife-sharpener's wetstone favourite, but I was meaning something like alox (corundum) orange.

Now for something special ! You are never doing "sharpening". You are never rubbing it out of flat. You are always rubbing it over another stone, keeping it ultra flat. You achieve that flatness by using a 3/8" or thicker 3" x 10" diamond plate on the 300 or 400 side. (they are affordable). You can use any Norton India, or equivalent stone. You do not want it too fine, say 300 or 400. If you get a badly worn stone (cheap), first flatten on a piece of plate glass, using 80-grit powder abrasive with some water and a drop of washing up liquid. You do not have to go to the expensive lengths like Robin Renzetti (YouTube - Precision Ground Flat Stones). Once flat, the way they work cannot hurt even a fine finished surface, but you will see the dings, and burrs. Try it on a 123-block, and see the quality of the surface grinder that made it. Rub it over the lathe ways, and you will see the shiny spots of every machining mark, and wear ridge, and accident it ever had in its life.


kennedy-100x25x11-5mm-al-ox-medium.jpg

Next is about the tailstock. Yes indeed, it does need to line up with the spindle, usually checked with a steel rule stuck across between two centres, and see if it tips as the tailstock centre contacts it. What you want to know is, is that still on centre line when the carriage is a foot or two away from the chuck? I expect it will be, but to find out, a test bar and micrometer is the exacting test.
 
alox (corundum) orange.

Cool I'll check that
Now for something special ! You are never doing "sharpening". You are never rubbing it out of flat. You are always rubbing it over another stone, keeping it ultra flat. You achieve that flatness by using a 3/8" or thicker 3" x 10" diamond plate on the 300 or 400 side. (they are affordable).

what are you referring to here? never rubbing "what" out of flat? I have not bought a diamond plate bc sandpaper taped to a pice of glass keeps all my stones flat. I'm not sure why to buy a diamond plate. I have diamond files which I use rarely. They are handy to straighten a curled thread. I'm confused what you are reccomending to use a diamond plate on.
You can use any Norton India, or equivalent stone. You do not want it too fine, say 300 or 400. If you get a badly worn stone (cheap), first flatten on a piece of plate glass, using 80-grit powder abrasive with some water and a drop of washing up liquid.

I do this but have never added water and detergent thats interesting- prevents clogging the paper? seems it would clog it worse. I am constantly whipping it with a rag.
Once flat, the way they work cannot hurt even a fine finished surface, but you will see the dings, and burrs. Try it on a 123-block, and see the quality of the surface grinder that made it. Rub it over the lathe ways, and you will see the shiny spots of every machining mark, and wear ridge, and accident it ever had in its life.

Yes this is a good idea for my mill too. In new orleans even tho I cover machines with a slip cover the ways are constantly showing rust - and I keep vactrax on em.

Great information - pleasure kind sir.
 
hey Graham, while I got you! Do you know how to flatten Arkansas stones? Just sandpaper them? For some reason I hesitate. I have a couple nice translucents one "large" slab about 6x2, a round cone and a 3/4 x 3/4 stick which has grooves running down a couple sides maybe .005 deep. I should just sit down and paper them I guess. I'd hate to hurt em.
 
hey Graham, while I got you! Do you know how to flatten Arkansas stones? Just sandpaper them? For some reason I hesitate. I have a couple nice translucents one "large" slab about 6x2, a round cone and a 3/4 x 3/4 stick which has grooves running down a couple sides maybe .005 deep. I should just sit down and paper them I guess. I'd hate to hurt em.
My apologies - I should have been clearer. I will try not to make it too long, but this post is unavoidably expansive!
I will have to think about how to make a suitable lap tool to restore cones, or round stone stuff, but this is possible. For now, let's talk about flats. Your Arkansas may need to be finished on something finer than 80 grit, but start with 120 or so, or you will be taking forever.

I first found out about how one makes (optical) flats, and exact surfaces when I first tried telescope optics making. The side knowledge gained means I have been able to pick up someting like a worn, dished 8x2x1 India stone for pre-owned cheap on eBay, and get it to totally flat like new with about 30 minutes of attention, though I admit that setup, and cleanup adds to that. Yes - even a white quartz-hard white finest Arkansas for final razor edge can be made, though those are usually smaller 5 x 2 x 3/8, and you finish with finer grits.

There is no kind of us of paper or sheet based abrasive medium that can do any better than a reasonable rough first flatness. This is simply because it has a thickness, and at the micron level, some "give". Commonly, folk will stick some abrasive paper onto a surface plate, and lap stuff. It is a bad thing to do, and it is tough to properly clean up the contamination. Use a flat metal plate, or a piece of thick plate glass instead.

When I say "flatten it", I mean moving it across a piece of plate glass that it itself supported on something reasonable flat, like a piece of counter-top. I use a chunk that was a piece of mirror. I also re-purposed a piece of thicker plate glass, about 13mm. There are only two surfaces that can slide over each other. Either it is a plane, or a part of a perfect sphere. For this, you need some abrasive.

Try eBay "Silicon Carbide Abrasive Grit". The stuff is quite cheap. You sprinkle about 1/3 teaspoon, like a few grams, onto the plate, and add about 2 drops of washing up liquid. That immediately destroys the surface tension, and it spreads. Drag a few marks in pencil across the stone, criss-cross, or squiggles. Put down on the grit and move gently until the initial crunch has gone, and you can tell it is rolling on the abrasive. 80 grit gets you to flat faster. This kind of abrasive is (deliberately) going to break down. Do not be using diamond anythings for this. Check the pencil marks. You will see progress. It may help to have a sheet of plastic under the lot first, or do it outside.

Get used to not allowing this stuff to escape. It's safe to dispose of, even onto ground, but not in drains. It gets under nails, and into fingerprints, and can then find its way onto your machines. Use gloves. You will be washing the used up slurry aside all the time, and adding a little new abrasive. It's noisy!

BUT ..
You rapidly get to make a new stone. I am astonished how rough and jagged the lap surface can be, and still deliver fine surface stones. Some guys even find a old paving stone, or concrete block, and straighten up a badly worn or clogged wetstone. If you wash away the slurry, clean up, you can change grit to (say) 300 or 400.

If you go the whole way, through all the grit sizes, all the way to cerium oxide, or emery 303, or jewelers rouge, you end up with it mirror polished, and also useless for being a flat stone, and rubbing on anything. The curious property of (truly) flat stones is that they become incapable of actual grinding or sharpening on anything unless shown an edge at an angle. They just "slide" over the surface, showing you the polished machining marks.

In use, machinists will typically rub two stones together, before using one on a machine. Pick up good stuff from YouTube. Get to understand why a flat stone works completely differently to one used in a "sharpening" or honing action.
I would not wish to be telling you stuff you maybe already know, but you may find these interesting. If your Arkansas stone is a genuine original, then take care of it. There are no more in Arkansas!


I know Robin Renzetti used a surface grinder to make his. I made mine on a plate glass. They are mad expensive to just buy a set. For the kind of machining stuff I do, it's all I need, and may be just as good.

 
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