New to me 10ee

[ol2stroker]

Bought this from a local auction, got a bunch of chucks with it, a few faceplates, and some jacobs flex collets and collet chuck. It's set up with a 5hp 3ph ac motor and a 3ph-3ph vfd. I've got to get me a rotary converter and then we'll see if I like how it runs with this setup. I'm expecting to be in the market for a back gear. Anyway it looks the part and has had the ways etc all reground. We're still feeling out our relationship. Does anyone have any info on this particular VFD they could share? He's got it set up so the lathe works off the control panel on the end of the base and I'd really like to rewire it so the factory speed control and forward/reverse lever function as intended. Thanks!

 

[verbotenwhisky]

Bought this from a local auction, got a bunch of chucks with it, a few faceplates, and some jacobs flex collets and collet chuck. It's set up with a 5hp 3ph ac motor and a 3ph-3ph vfd. I've got to get me a rotary converter and then we'll see if I like how it runs with this setup. I'm expecting to be in the market for a back gear. Anyway it looks the part and has had the ways etc all reground. We're still feeling out our relationship. Does anyone have any info on this particular VFD they could share? He's got it set up so the lathe works off the control panel on the end of the base and I'd really like to rewire it so the factory speed control and forward/reverse lever function as intended. Thanks!

View attachment 485916View attachment 485917View attachment 485918View attachment 485919View attachment 485920View attachment 485915

Sweet machine...

 

[mksj]

The VFD appears to be oversized (33A output) for the motor rating (13A) so most likely it could be run in a derated mode off of single phase. The speed pot is usually a single turn, it is often connected to the original speed adjustment dial. Different ways to implement Forward/Reverse, just need a rotary switch with two NO contacts. If there is no back gear, then low speed running will be a bit anemic. There are a number of different posts on adding back in the original back gear, takes some precision machining.
Link to drive manual.

http://rct.wku.edu/kittpeak/PDFs/Reliance/D23217.pdf

 

[ol2stroker]

The VFD appears to be oversized (33A output) for the motor rating (13A) so most likely it could be run in a derated mode off of single phase. The speed pot is usually a single turn, it is often connected to the original speed adjustment dial. Different ways to implement Forward/Reverse, just need a rotary switch with two NO contacts. If there is no back gear, then low speed running will be a bit anemic. There are a number of different posts on adding back in the original back gear, takes some precision machining.
Link to drive manual.

http://rct.wku.edu/kittpeak/PDFs/Reliance/D23217.pdf

Actually that manual applies to the larger HP versions of the drive but your post changed my focus and I was able to locate the correct manual which I am linking here: (edit I cannot link yet - not enough posts, remind me to update this!) in case anyone else needs it. Your reply sent me in the direction I needed to go, and although there isn't published single phase specs in the manual (only lists up to 7.5hp single phase specs) I was able to extrapolate the published numbers to estimate for the 10hp drive and the VFD should be JUST enough for that motor. I'll wire it up today and see what happens. Thank you for the reply/info!!

Now that I have a legit manual I can modify/remove the existing remote and utilize the 10EEs factory controls. I'm also unsure if the spindle lock safety is wired up currently, which I will check and if not I will wire it.

 

[mksj]

You need to use the VFD inputs for the run/stop command and the reverse, there would be no programming changes to the VFD. Older drives are more temperamental and fragile on the output section of the VFD, so the motor needs to be directly connected to the VFD and you need to use the low level inputs to control the motor. Most 3 phase input VFD drives (even though it may not be specified) can run off of single phase, if you double the drives rating for applied load (amperage) in constant torque mode and the same duty level. Most newer drives also give some guidance as well as the need for a line reactor or DC choke. In some cases one needs to deactivate the phase loss detection for the input and/or use a jumper between two phases. Some VFD's do not allow this and cannot be used with single phase input. Newer drives are much more compact and more versatile, they also run in sensorless vector mode which gives better low frequency (Hz) control in particular below 30Hz. An equivalent newer VFD replacement would be something like the Hitachi WJ200-075 LF or its newer version the C1-075LFU2 which is a 10/15Hp VFD with an output of 33A in Normal Duty constant torque.

 

[ol2stroker]

You need to use the VFD inputs for the run/stop command and the reverse, there would be no programming changes to the VFD. Older drives are more temperamental and fragile on the output section of the VFD, so the motor needs to be directly connected to the VFD and you need to use the low level inputs to control the motor.

That's exactly how I was planning on doing that, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Most newer drives also give some guidance as well as the need for a line reactor or DC choke. In some cases one needs to deactivate the phase loss detection for the input and/or use a jumper between two phases. Some VFD's do not allow this and cannot be used with single phase input. Newer drives are much more compact and more versatile, they also run in sensorless vector mode which gives better low frequency (Hz) control in particular below 30Hz. An equivalent newer VFD replacement would be something like the Hitachi WJ200-075 LF or its newer version the C1-075LFU2 which is a 10/15Hp VFD with an output of 33A in Normal Duty constant torque.

I was looking in the manual for phase loss detection after my research last night and there is no reference to it - so I think I'm in the clear there. Unsure about a line reactor or dc choke.

A newer drive is appealing, but at that point wouldn't it make sense to upgrade the motor as well?

 

[Ultradog MN]

Bought this from a local auction, got a bunch of chucks with it, a few faceplates, and some jacobs flex collets and collet chuck. It's set up with a 5hp 3ph ac motor and a 3ph-3ph vfd. I've got to get me a rotary converter and then we'll see if I like how it runs with this setup. I'm expecting to be in the market for a back gear. Anyway it looks the part and has had the ways etc all reground. We're still feeling out our relationship. Does anyone have any info on this particular VFD they could share? He's got it set up so the lathe works off the control panel on the end of the base and I'd really like to rewire it so the factory speed control and forward/reverse lever function as intended. Thanks!

View attachment 485916View attachment 485917View attachment 485918View attachment 485919View attachment 485920View attachment 485915

Very nice!
I can't help you at all with your electrics.
Just a question and a comment:
Does the chip pan slide out to remove the chips?
It looks like it does not.
If it doesn't you might want to reconsider the placement of your lathe.
I have a Monarch CK and the chip tray does not slide out.
Noticed that when I got it home and was considering how to place it in my shop.
I knew I would hate reaching underneath the carriage to clean it - getting oil on my arms, etc.
So I placed mine perpendicular to the wall.
Big open maw on the backside you could clean with a scoop shovel if you wished.
Looks like I need to do that one of these days.

 

[rabler]

Given the paint color, I wonder if that one is a rebuild by TAS Iron. Might be worth contacting them on wiring details, etc?
I'll second @Ultradog MN's thoughts on the chip pan access considerations.

You could certainly try using the existing motor with a new VFD and swap it out if there is an issue. Would mean programming the motor parameters into the VFD twice if you had to swap it, but otherwise not much downside to trying the existing motor.

 

[ol2stroker]

Unfortunately I need the room in the shop more than I need access to the chip pan. It's going to have to be good enough for who it's for.

What I meant on the vfd upgrade is: don't you need a newer motor to take full advantage of the vector/inverter capabilities of the new drives?

 

[mksj]

I would use the existing motor, it appears to be relatively new, these motors are good for at least 2X their base speed and low speed performance is more governed by the VFD. Most newish motors have a 10:1 constant torque range, vector motors are 1000:1 or more, but you really do not want to be running the motor below 20Hz due to loss of power (Hp is about 1.65 and although motor torque is constant you loose the mechanical advantage of 3). A vector motor you can push the top end to around 3X the base speed so figure 5500-6000 RPM, if you were going to use it as a single speed with no reduction gear then most people drop in a 7.5 or 10Hp vector motor to get the speed range needed, as well as a bigger VFD. If using a reduction gear, then no reason to put a vector motor in, I would just use the current motor. One can tweak the speeds and programming parameters, but with a reduction gear you would be limited to the maximum speed it was designed for from the original drive.

I would start out with what you have and see if/how it operates and then go from there, the most important part (and cost) is that the lathe has been refurbished and looks in great condition. A lot of cost goes into refurbishing these old lathes, as well as time.
Karl T has two 10EE's one he has a 5Hp with a back gear, the other he put in a 10Hp with no back gear.

Monarch 10EE rebuild 10Hp VFD no backgear

I bought my second 10EE a while back https://www.machinesused.com/lots/Monarch-10EE-Toolroom-Lathe-with-Taper-Attachment-and-Chucks-25097#bidNow After playing with the existing DC motor and drive, I gave up on repairing it. I did not try super hard, not too excited about maintaining an antique...

www.hobby-machinist.com