PM-1640TL VFD Options

[Oops!]

Greetings everyone, I'm looking for some opinions and information with regard to installing a VFD in my soon to arrive new PM-1640TL lathe. I have been reviewing the various VFD installations here on HM and associated videos so I have an idea of what I want to do, but of course I'm going to have to do it slightly different than anyone else. My available power sources are 240V 1-phase and 480V 3-phase from a PhasePerfect 20HP converter, which gives me 3 options for powering the machine.

1) Step-down 3-PH transformer to get 240V 3-PH and be done (the transformers are not small, or cheap from what I've found)
2) 480V 3-PH VFD (Yaskawa GA500), re-wire the motor for 480V and get a 480V 3-PH coolant pump
3) 240V 1-PH powered VFD (GA500 but much bigger), leave the motor and coolant pump as they are

Option 1 I don't like so much as it's bulky and expensive and seems redundant in the wrong direction (240V -> 480V -> 240V).

I like the features a VFD brings, and would enjoy reconfiguring the controls, possibly adding a computer/FPGA to the mix in the future as it's another hobby I enjoy and would allow me to add a tach and touchscreen and so on, so the choice really boils down to the tradeoffs between options 2 and 3.

I don't have the machine yet, so I don't know for sure the specs on the coolant pump or if there's a 480V 3-PH "compatible" version of it out there or not. Does anyone know from experience? Or I'll do some searching once the machine arrives. The advantages to option 2 are the VFD can be smaller (not oversized to deal with 1-PH input) and all of the input wiring is also smaller as I believe the motor FLA @ 460V is 7A. 24VDC power supplies from 480V 3-PH are available if the 150mA from the VFD is not sufficient for the controls, however those end up. If I'm reading things right, it looks like a GA50U4009ABA would do it as far as 7.3A HD goes but it also says the HP is 4 instead of 5 in the HD category so I'm a little unsure if I should pay attention to amps or HP?

I'm entirely uncertain which GA500 would be sufficient for 240V 1-PH input. I think it would be the GA50U2042ABA rated for 10HP 33A in the HD category, the next smaller one would be 7.5HP 25A for HD so that's not quite double the FLA of 14A @ 240V. I don't know if I'd be able or want to cheat down a size like that since the frames are the same size (5.5"W x 10.24" H x 5.5"D) and beefier is usually better in my experience. The 480V frame would be 4.25"W x 6.06"D x 5.04"H incidentally, which would definitely help fit it inside the existing cabinet (which I haven't seen yet of course).

Since I can't fire up the lathe until I do SOMETHING about the power, I'd like to get a VFD on the way while I await delivery of the machine and read the VFD documents to come up with a strategy. Does anyone care to venture an opinion on which way they would go and why, and/or have definitive information on my proposed VFD choices?

I am absolutely certain there will be upcoming questions regarding the control strategy but I figure picking the correct VFD and getting it on the way is the proper first step.

Best regards,
-Doug

 

[ddickey]

Surprised you didn't just buy the factory installed vfd model.

 

[Oops!]

Surprised you didn't just buy the factory installed vfd model.

I didn't and still don't see a 1640TL with a pre-installed VFD, but even if I just missed it, that would take away the fun of fiddling with everything.

 

[ddickey]

You'd have to ask them but I'm sure they could get you one. The company that manufacturers that lathe has several variable speed lathes available.

 

[markba633csi]

What about the 4th option? Change the motor wires to accept 480v (if that's possible) and use your PhasePerfect?
Use a small 3 phase transformer from the PP 480v to the coolant pump 240v

 

[Oops!]

What about the 4th option? Change the motor wires to accept 480v (if that's possible) and use your PhasePerfect?
Use a small 3 phase transformer from the PP 480v to the coolant pump 240v

Hi Mark,

I believe it is possible to change the motor wires to accept 480V based on what I've seen in other threads, assuming the motor plate on the incoming machine is the same or similar to photos I've found on MH. I believe there's a transformer in the default setup that converts 230V 3-PH to 230V 1-PH for the coolant pump as well as 24VAC for control relays and such. If that transformer has multiple taps maybe it could be made to work with 480V, or could be replaced with one that would and produce the other required outputs from 480V. That would give me the standard controls but at 480V input instead of 230/240.

I would however like to have some of the features available with a VFD like soft starts, controlled braking, directional jog and of course variable speed. So I'm leaning towards 480V 3-PH from the PhasePerfect with a VFD I think, depending on what type of feedback I receive. I was originally planning at the outset to go 240V 1-PH with a VFD which makes the coolant pump easy, but looking at the oversizing of the VFD made me wonder if maybe it would be "better" to go with 480V 3-PH input instead. It's not strikingly obvious to me at this point which way would be "better", so I was hoping someone with more experience might provide some wisdom. Maybe the best solution is 480V 3-PH + VFD + Transformer and the 220V 1-PH coolant pump. I wish I was smart enough to just know

Cheers,
-Doug

 

[mksj]

Geez,
Option 4, buy a 5 Hp simple phase perfect for about what you would pay for the VFD and have a plug and play 3 phase source. Why decrease the value of a lathe of this type (as well as expense) of switching out the motor to 480VAC and using a 480VAC VFD, you then need everything else to support the higher voltage supply.

Talk about making it complicated. Single phase 240VAC, use a VFD to convert to 240VAC and a basic install that has been previously outlined for the TL series lathes and also the same as the 1440GT basic install. This uses the installed contactors for forward and reverse to switch the VFD inputs after the high voltage wring (black wires) are removed. Coolant pumps tend to be single phase, you can request this from the manufacturer, and 99% of these lathes will never use the factory coolant pump, otherwise buy a single phase pump for $100 or so. It has nothing to do with with the VFD.

VFD, most people end up using the Hitachi WJ200-075LF, all the programming and wiring is already out there. If you want to step it up a notch then go with the Yaskawa GA500, you should be able to use the GA50U2030ABA which has a HD output of 25A, I have done several builds on these Sunmaster lathes with both VFDs and the notes I have is that the 5Hp motor is 13.7A. I have all the GA500 and WJ200 VFD parameters for this lathe/motor. You could add a DC buss choke if you wanted to be conservative and a bit more headroom. MTE 25A or 32A DC chokes (MTE DCA002504 or MTE DCA003203) should be sufficient, I can look up the specifics if needed. The other option is to use a native single phase Yaskawa GA50UB018ABA.

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[mksj]

Ok, stock motor is 14A, and yes you could rewire the stock motor and transformer to for 460V, you would need to replace the overload relays and stock fusing. So would run directly off a 480VAC Phase Perfect. The coolant pump, as mentioned they are an inexpensive replacement if you ever were to use it, and also would need to switch out its overload relay. Plus side, is it can be done with minimal expense, but none of the VFD benefits.

 

[Oops!]

The other option is to use a native single phase Yaskawa GA50UB018ABA

I'll be dipped, I completely missed that one in the list. To be fair, that's actually option 3 but without the consternation of not knowing for sure how much to oversize the VFD for single phase input, which is what was pushing me towards option 2 with no oversizing required. I'm assuming the motor plate will show Youba 14A @ 230V and 7A @ 460V as found in a photo I believe you posted in fact in another thread, and the 2x rule for upsizing would mean 28A so out of caution I would have gone with the 2042 rated for 33A instead of the 2030 at 25 since I wouldn't want to be burning out VFDs because I just assumed it'd be close enough. And the tech ref wants 6 AWG wire for the 2042 and that just seems large to me, so to avoid the uncertainty, making the switch to the 480V 3-PH source I have on-hand seemed like a viable option instead of a gamble (because of my limited experience). But, the B018 spec covers the 14A @ 230V and not having to change the motor wiring or the coolant pump definitely fits the "simple as possible but no simpler" rule. So thank you for pointing the B018 out to me, I think that's what I'll go with.

As for the DC link choke, that's not an option for the B018, but would you suggest an input line reactor, and/or an EMI filter on the input? If I only ever ran one machine at a time I don't think I'd worry about it too much. But I do wonder if having line reactors and EMI filters on my machines might help prevent them from interfering with each other or computers in the shop (running LinuxCNC for example) especially if more than one happens to be running at a time. Line reactors are freaking huge though from what I've seen, so I've been sort of torn between why not minimize distortions and EMI and how the heck do I fit those huge heavy things in that tiny cabinet. Any advice on keeping everything in the shop happy power-wise would be appreciated.

Regards,
-Doug

 

[Oops!]

you could rewire the stock motor and transformer to for 460V, you would need to replace the overload relays and stock fusing.

Thank you for the extra research! I think the main reason I'd opt for the 480V route would be if I could use the lathe while I ponder how I'm going to do the VFD conversion, so having to mess with the fuses and relays sort of defeats that. Plus I do see a benefit to having the 240V 1-PH supply when either I pass on or pass the machine on to someone. Heh. Or if the VFD was 1/10th the size and there was no room in the cabinet I guess would be another reason. But I think the B018 option fits well and with some variation on the simple controls you've helped others come up with I can end up with a fantastic setup. It will give me the opportunity to answer the E-stop safe torque off coasting vs E-stop remove the run command and get active braking (for when my necktie gets wrapped around the chuck) quandry once and for all.