Thoughts on Mini-Lathes

[Aaron_W]

Even on published specs, Q/C varies wildly within a certain bracket of pricing.

Lower cost machines within that variable price bracket for the same type machine usually having lower Q/C.

I've noticed, looking at different vendors for the same machine, you can find some variation in dimensions and weight. The ones I listed were from Little Machine Shop, Micro Mark gives their 7x16" as 38" long, 12" deep and 12.75" tall and 86lbs...

I try to go by published specs for comparisons since I don't have an example of every lathe to measure. Just have to trust the accuracy / honesty of the vendors.

Interesting that with the lathe in front of you Micro Mark comes in almost as far over as LMS comes in under your measurements. I bet LMS measured the lathe as it comes out of the box (tail stock tucked in, handles off etc), while Micro Mark is measuring with the lathe set up and tail stock at full extension.

A little narrower, but almost the same working area as my 9x20. While they have their own set of issues, the 9x20s really are a nice option for the space constrained and similar price to the higher end 7x lathes. Of course 250lbs so better bring a friend or two to move it into the shop.

 

[GrifterGuru]

I've noticed, looking at different vendors for the same machine, you can find some variation in dimensions and weight. The ones I listed were from Little Machine Shop, Micro Mark gives their 7x16" as 38" long, 12" deep and 12.75" tall and 86lbs...

I try to go by published specs for comparisons since I don't have an example of every lathe to measure. Just have to trust the accuracy / honesty of the vendors.

Interesting that with the lathe in front of you Micro Mark comes in almost as far over as LMS comes in under your measurements. I bet LMS measured the lathe as it comes out of the box (tail stock tucked in, handles off etc), while Micro Mark is measuring with the lathe set up and tail stock at full extension.

A little narrower, but almost the same working area as my 9x20. While they have their own set of issues, the 9x20s really are a nice option for the space constrained and similar price to the higher end 7x lathes. Of course 250lbs so better bring a friend or two to move it into the shop.

The micromark 38" is absolutely spot on. Since I run my T/S without the rotating handle, just the wheel, I get away with 35". Case of needs must.

I have a short "T" handle that just sits in the tapped hole and rotates in the wheel so I can spin the spindle in/out rapidly when I need to at the moment on my SC3. Have been known to use the key for my 13mm T/stock drill chuck to do the same thing. It's just as easy and just as fast to grab.

On the 7x I am rebuilding, I fitted a heavy (by comparison) 3 spoke 6" handwheel on the tailstock. One hefty spin runs the quill in/out nearly 3/4 of its length. Mass of the handwheel helps in that respect.

 

[SouthernChap]

Even on published specs, Q/C varies wildly within a certain bracket of pricing.

Lower cost machines within that variable price bracket for the same type machine usually having lower Q/C.

Yep, exactly. This is often the mistake people who only have experience with vintage English or US lathes make.

They assume that all similarly shaped, sized and 'specced' 7x Chinese mini lathes are the same.

From what I've seen reported by owners, there can be marked differences in fit and finish, even from 'known' manufacturing brands (Seig, Real Bull and Weiss). There also seems to be no real stable pattern of quality that reliably tells you one manufacturer is better than the others (although PM seem to get their Chinese kit from Weiss for the most part; maybe Weiss are easier to insist they work to a more demanding spec than the others?)

Then you need to add on the effects of what QC standards the importer wishes to insist on (in other words, pay for) at the factory end, and how much (if any) the importer does at their facilities.

The importer does seem to play a major part in determining the differences in quality of what seem at first glance, the same products.

 

[SouthernChap]

Personally, I think the second half of her screen name describes her perfectly. I hate to be a negative Nancy but, she's the last person I'd take advice from.

Oh really? What practices specifically do you think she falls down on?

I watch a lot of her stuff and enjoy it and feel I've learned a lot, but if I've learned the wrong things, that's not good.

 

[CraigH]

Yep, exactly. This is often the mistake people who only have experience with vintage English or US lathes make.

They assume that all similarly shaped, sized and 'specced' 7x Chinese mini lathes are the same.

From what I've seen reported by owners, there can be marked differences in fit and finish, even from 'known' manufacturing brands (Seig, Real Bull and Weiss). There also seems to be no real stable pattern of quality that reliably tells you one manufacturer is better than the others (although PM seem to get their Chinese kit from Weiss for the post part; maybe Weiss are easier to insist they work to a more demanding spec than the others?)

Then you need to add on the effects of what QC standards the importer wishes to insist on (in other words, pay for) at the factory end, and how much (if any) the importer does at their facilities.

The importer does seem to play a major part in determining the differences in quality of what seem at first glance, the same products.

The statement in the middle of the quoted post reflects on what I have held and stated - there are marked differences between examples from any manufacturer of 7x lathes, and similarly between examples from any vendor. There will be examples from the "worst" vendors that spec out as well as examples from the "best" vendors. And conversely there will be examples from the "best" vendors that spec out as poorly as examples from the "worst" vendors. Personal experience directs me to this opinion. Most of the price differences are for features, vendor support, and vendor infrastructure.

Generally, though, most "repairs" are improving fit such as headstock alignment, tailstock alignment, and adjustment of gibs. Those require labor but no parts expense. Going beyond this, as others have performed, are "upgrades", and "modifications", and "additions".

I do not at all discount that there are quite egregious examples that should not occur from any vendor, but have happened.

 

[Nesse1]

I do not at all discount that there are quite egregious examples that should not occur from any vendor, but have happened.

Therein lies the rub. It seems that some of the China mini lathe manufacturers ship all manner of atrocities.

Case in point...in addition to the crap casting example I posted before, my 8x16 machine had really poor machining on the bed. More specifically, the thickness of the bed, from the top of the V to the underside where the carriage clamps rode, varied more than .015" from end to end.

If the carriage clamp screws were set to take out the slop with the carriage by the headstock, the carriage wouldn't move as it was moved back towards the tailstock.

Sorry if I sound like a debbie downer, but honestly, I am. The quality of manufacturing of these cheap small lathes is very inconsistent, and disconcerting. It's one thing to fix a handwheel of low quality, but if the bed is machined wrong, or the castings are full of porosity, you have no real way of fixing that situation by yourself.

 

[SouthernChap]

Therein lies the rub. It seems that some of the China mini lathe manufacturers ship all manner of atrocities.

Case in point...in addition to the crap casting example I posted before, my 8x16 machine had really poor machining on the bed. More specifically, the thickness of the bed, from the top of the V to the underside where the carriage clamps rode, varied more than .015" from end to end.

If the carriage clamp screws were set to take out the slop with the carriage by the headstock, the carriage wouldn't move as it was moved back towards the tailstock.

Sorry if I sound like a debbie downer, but honestly, I am. The quality of manufacturing of these cheap small lathes is very inconsistent, and disconcerting. It's one thing to fix a handwheel of low quality, but if the bed is machined wrong, or the castings are full of porosity, you have no real way of fixing that situation by yourself.

Yep, yours sounds like a particularly bad example (bought from eBay?) but pretty much every YouTube guide to improving a mini-lathe will have a section or even a whole video on lapping and flattening the underside of the bed where the shears run. They'll also recommend shimming the shears to remove reliance on the suboptimal grub screws to balance out the clamping bolts.

Again, I'll reiterate the point that the manufacturer seems less important than the importer one buys from*.

I could well imagine the three manufacturers of the 7x mini-lathes separate the output from their QC into at least four grades:

1. Importers demanding higher QC standards, who are willing to pay a higher unit cost for the higher standards and will make a PITA of themselves should they not get what they expect.
2. Importers who will accept minor QC issues but will still want a basic level of merchantability.
3. eBay sellers who will sell pretty much what is sent to them (or Vevor ).
4. Scrap.

I suspect grade 3. saves an awful lot of parts that, in a company that relied on its reputation, would end up in grade 4.

The importer is the only indication (and you remember what your driving instructor told you about indicators ) 7x buyers have of quality.

That's why, when buying new in the US, going up in size and buying from PM (and maybe from Warco in the UK) is probably the wisest choice, if possible.

*I have a vague feeling based on nothing more than my own experience (so a sample with a population size of one) and the fact that PM appears to use them for their Chinese machines, that Weiss may have some degree of tighter QC standards than the other two, but that feeling isn't something anybody should consider worth relying on!

 

[CraigH]

PM's smallest lathe is the weight of four 7x16 LMS 5100 lathes, and over a foot longer - by published specifications. No question of the great capability increase. But a very large size increase that may not work for all.

Which begs the question, where is a PM mini-lathe of a different design addressing the SIEG / Real Bull shortcomings?

 

[dabear3428]

Surely nobody goes through the hassle (and in some cases, cost) of rigging, to-the-kerb-removal, loading, transporting, unloading and from-the-kerb-installation of a non-benchtop lathe to impress anybody else? That would be madness.

Surely everyone buying larger lathes are either buying one because they love the idea of having all that capability or because they need that capability.

As regards Quinn's anti old iron stance. I don't fully agree with it but I think she does make some good points about relative capabilities when you compare lathes of similar size and price from say the 1940s or 1950s on the one hand and modern decent quality lathes on the other.

However, the main argument against buying a vintage lathe, and a pretty compelling one too, remains the inability of the beginner to assess a vintage lathes state of repair.

I feel now, after stripping down and improving my 7x and learning more about how lathes (and machine tools in general) work, I have a decent (but not certain) chance of visiting a seller of an ML7 and assessing its state to a reasonable degree.

When I got my 7x I know I couldn't have done so.

That's not to say beginners shouldn't try but it's understandable that they often don't and buying a 10x22 from PM isn't the worst decision anybody will ever make.

I'm in the position of having the space and the ability to move anything up to 2000lb with no issues and up to 6000lb with prep. i i intend to get a large lathe at some point but a small lathe to tinker with while i figure out which large lathe i want is the way i went. A small lathe will resale for a large % of my purchase price where a large lathe is more difficult to sell. in the end if you learn to work with a small lathe you will be able to do about anything with a large lathe.

 

[Aaron_W]

The micromark 38" is absolutely spot on. Since I run my T/S without the rotating handle, just the wheel, I get away with 35". Case of needs must.

I have a short "T" handle that just sits in the tapped hole and rotates in the wheel so I can spin the spindle in/out rapidly when I need to at the moment on my SC3. Have been known to use the key for my 13mm T/stock drill chuck to do the same thing. It's just as easy and just as fast to grab.

On the 7x I am rebuilding, I fitted a heavy (by comparison) 3 spoke 6" handwheel on the tailstock. One hefty spin runs the quill in/out nearly 3/4 of its length. Mass of the handwheel helps in that respect.

Last night I measured my Enco 9x20, 41" head to the very tip of the tail stock hand wheel with the tail stock at the far end of the bed. Only 3" more for a heavier, more capable lathe, but of course when dealing with small lathes just a couple inches may mean the difference in a lathe fitting or not. The 7x16s are already pushing the concept of mini, and although nominally only 2" longer I understand they are really more like 7x18" and 5-6" longer than the 7x14" models.

Oh really? What practices specifically do you think she falls down on?

I watch a lot of her stuff and enjoy it and feel I've learned a lot, but if I've learned the wrong things, that's not good.

I know she has some habits like marking with her calipers that set some people off.

The only thing I've taken issue with is when she talks about other machines, where she often repeats some common but bad information. She has said herself that she really doesn't know that much about other machines.

So I guess everybody hasn't made a spread sheet of machine specs like I have? (ok, maybe I'm a nerd).

PM's smallest lathe is the weight of four 7x16 LMS 5100 lathes, and over a foot longer - by published specifications. No question of the great capability increase. But a very large size increase that may not work for all.

Which begs the question, where is a PM mini-lathe of a different design addressing the SIEG / Real Bull shortcomings?

Sherline and Taig are smaller, but miles ahead in the quality control aspect. Since they don't have a compound as a standard feature the practical working envelope between a stock 3-1/2" Sherline and a stock 7" mini is quite close (1.88" vs 2.13"). Add in the optional risers increasing a Sherline to a 6" swing and there is little difference in capacity.

No longer available new, but Emco and Prazzi offered some similar size, but higher quality machines.

I'm guessing cost is the main reason why there is not a "better" 7" mini offered. The 7x16" minis are already $1200-1500, so better is going to be pushing $2000 if not over and at that price there are 10x22" lathes that cost less. The Grizzly G4000 9x20 is already competitive on price as it is also $1200, and is only marginally larger than the 7x16.

Used Emco Compact 5s seem to run $1200-1500+ so if still made would probably be around $2500. The largest Proxxon lathe, the PD400 is a 3.3x15" lathe, with a $3300 price tag. Cowells offer 3-1/2x8" lathes with a starting price of $3400. So maybe there is a market for a $2000 7" lathe, but it is probably quite small.

You can still get new Myford Super 7s, starting price $8500...