Thoughts on Mini-Lathes

[CraigH]

Because of size and weight. Even a G4000 is almost the weight of three 7x16's - it is fully three times the weight of three 7x14's.

If a PM 10x20 is so special at $2900, why not a $1895 PM 7x16 or 8x16? Spec'd with 125 mm width ways, a tailstock longer than its height, a bed with the motor moved out from under the bed to increase rigidity.

What is NOT needed is another SEIG / Real Bull, et al, with a polish by PM or other perceived to be premium vendor.

 

[SouthernChap]

PM's smallest lathe is the weight of four 7x16 LMS 5100 lathes, and over a foot longer - by published specifications. No question of the great capability increase. But a very large size increase that may not work for all.

Which begs the question, where is a PM mini-lathe of a different design addressing the SIEG / Real Bull shortcomings?

Well, I did say "if possible". That qualification ought to cover both financial and spacial constraints.

I don't think PM would offer a true mini lathe. If they did anything like that I'd guess they'd want to not go below something along the lines of the Warco 240.

Warco WM 240 Lathe | Quality Metalworking Bench Lathes WM240

Very high quality Warco metal lathe, with variable speed and integrated rev counter. Highly accurate machine, featuring powerful motor and large range of additional tooling. Now with brushless motor.

www.warco.co.uk

 

[dabear3428]

Last night I measured my Enco 9x20, 41" head to the very tip of the tail stock hand wheel with the tail stock at the far end of the bed. Only 3" more for a heavier, more capable lathe, but of course when dealing with small lathes just a couple inches may mean the difference in a lathe fitting or not. The 7x16s are already pushing the concept of mini, and although nominally only 2" longer I understand they are really more like 7x18" and 5-6" longer than the 7x14" models.



I know she has some habits like marking with her calipers that set some people off.

The only thing I've taken issue with is when she talks about other machines, where she often repeats some common but bad information. She has said herself that she really doesn't know that much about other machines.

So I guess everybody hasn't made a spread sheet of machine specs like I have? (ok, maybe I'm a nerd).



Sherline and Taig are smaller, but miles ahead in the quality control aspect. Since they don't have a compound as a standard feature the practical working envelope between a stock 3-1/2" Sherline and a stock 7" mini is quite close (1.88" vs 2.13"). Add in the optional risers increasing a Sherline to a 6" swing and there is little difference in capacity.

No longer available new, but Emco and Prazzi offered some similar size, but higher quality machines.

I'm guessing cost is the main reason why there is not a "better" 7" mini offered. The 7x16" minis are already $1200-1500, so better is going to be pushing $2000 if not over and at that price there are 10x22" lathes that cost less. The Grizzly G4000 9x20 is already competitive on price as it is also $1200, and is only marginally larger than the 7x16.

Used Emco Compact 5s seem to run $1200-1500+ so if still made would probably be around $2500. The largest Proxxon lathe, the PD400 is a 3.3x15" lathe, with a $3300 price tag. Cowells offer 3-1/2x8" lathes with a starting price of $3400. So maybe there is a market for a $2000 7" lathe, but it is probably quite small.

You can still get new Myford Super 7s, starting price $8500...

the 9X24 MX-600A is $1200 shipped

 

[SouthernChap]

I know she has some habits like marking with her calipers that set some people off.

The only thing I've taken issue with is when she talks about other machines, where she often repeats some common but bad information. She has said herself that she really doesn't know that much about other machines.

So I guess everybody hasn't made a spread sheet of machine specs like I have? (ok, maybe I'm a nerd).

Is there a particular reason that this is such awful practice? I guess one might damage/wear the tip of the calipers but eh...that tip isn't particularly useful for anything precise anyway.

She seems very goal oriented and much less interested in the domain of machining in regards that don't offer her functional utility. I suspect she'd respect some of the engineering design and the quality of manufacture of the old ML7s but dismiss them as an obsolete irrelevance.

No longer available new, but Emco and Prazzi offered some similar size, but higher quality machines.

Which, having looked at the entries on lathes.co.uk, sure to look like the prettier, smarter, more capable ancestors of the Chinese 7x lathes!

You can still get new Myford Super 7s, starting price $8500...

I cannot for the life of me imagine who buys the new Myfords?

I mean, even a secondhand 50's, 60s, 70s or 80's ML7 or Super 7 has to compete with something like a Boxford and the only place it really wins is the degree of ball ache of getting the thing from the seller to your shop (and maybe the fact that most ML7s and Super 7s are likely to have had a bit less wear, whereas a Boxford might have seen more hard usage).

I can only imagine it's people who have way too.much money to spend and for whatever reason, want to "Buy British". How RDG Tools has any volume of sales beats me.

 

[CraigH]

I don't think PM would offer a true mini lathe. If they did anything like that I'd guess they'd want to not go below something along the lines of the Warco 240.

Warco WM 240 Lathe | Quality Metalworking Bench Lathes WM240

Very high quality Warco metal lathe, with variable speed and integrated rev counter. Highly accurate machine, featuring powerful motor and large range of additional tooling. Now with brushless motor.

www.warco.co.uk

Likely so. And as mentioned, no need for another vendor of 7x mini-lathes.

I looked at the Warco website some years ago.

Refreshing myself today, the 240 is nearly a 10 inch (at 9.45"), and weight is close to a G4000.

Wasn't there a Warco 210 in the recent past?

I do not know the configuration of the Warco motor mounts ( which is a weak point of 7x mini-lathes - probably also on 8x lathes - the smaller 8x's, do not know about the 8.7's )

 

[Aaron_W]

Because of size and weight. Even a G4000 is almost the weight of three 7x16's - it is fully three times the weight of three 7x14's.

If a PM 10x20 is so special at $2900, why not a $1895 PM 7x16 or 8x16? Spec'd with 125 mm width ways, a tailstock longer than its height, a bed with the motor moved out from under the bed to increase rigidity.

What is NOT needed is another SEIG / Real Bull, et al, with a polish by PM or other perceived to be premium vendor.

G4000 is listed at 250lbs, which yes is a lot heavier than a mini, but unless you plan to move it before and after each use is still a very manageable weight. I bought mine used and easily moved it by hand with a second person. The stand it came with had been mounted on wheels making it easy to move around my shop. Compared to a vintage lathe it is a tad lighter than my 8.5x20" Rivett, and 5" shorter.

PM1022 weighs 360lbs, so even two strong people are going to have a hard time moving that without equipment.

A "little" PM1022 already exists, it is the Sieg SC4 an 8.25x16 or 20" lathe, the 20" version is sold by Little Machine Shop as their 8.5x20" 7500. $2700 and 220lbs. It is nearly identical to the PM1022 in features even including the power cross feed (something lacking on most of the current lathes under 12" swing). For a difference of only $200 and 4" in length (assuming LMS' dimensions are accurate and have already been shown to be off on the 7x16") I think it is clear why most opt for the larger machine. The only real advantage being its weight being more manageable.

Maybe a "small" Grizzly 10x22 would be an option, being cheaper and lighter. The G0602 is $1925 and 330lbs vs 360lbs, but they already have the G4000 9x20 which is quite similar just a bit smaller and cheaper. They also have a series of 8x16 lathes.

The Grizzly 8x16, 9x20 and 10x22 do not appear to be Sieg designs. The Grizzly 8x16 and PM's PM1022 lathes appear to originate with Weiss. I have never been able to figure out who makes the 9x20 or 10x22 sold by Grizzly. The 9x20 is obviously based on Emco Compact 8 clones (enlarged and with the addition of a gear box for feed speeds), the Grizzly 10x22 seems to be an enlargement of the 9x20 design. Since everybody and their uncle has sold a 9x20 it is not Grizzly specific.


If somebody were to go back to the original Emco Compact 8 design, you might have your desired lathe. It should be possible to keep it around the same price as the 9x20. The 9x20 clearly took its design from the Emco lathe, but the Emco Compact 8 was a smaller 8.2x17" lathe, that only weighed 130lbs, much more deserving of the "compact" in its name. The 9x20 is an 8.75" swing and a true 19" or 20" between centers the difference being whether sold with a live or dead center for the tail stock.

Is there a particular reason that this is such awful practice? I guess one might damage/wear the tip of the calipers but eh...that tip isn't particularly useful for anything precise anyway.

She seems very goal oriented and much less interested in the domain of machining in regards that don't offer her functional utility. I suspect she'd respect some of the engineering design and the quality of manufacture of the old ML7s but dismiss them as an obsolete irrelevance.


Which, having looked at the entries on lathes.co.uk, sure to look like the prettier, smarter, more capable ancestors of the Chinese 7x lathes!


I cannot for the life of me imagine who buys the new Myfords?

I mean, even a secondhand 50's, 60s, 70s or 80's ML7 or Super 7 has to compete with something like a Boxford and the only place it really wins is the degree of ball ache of getting the thing from the seller to your shop (and maybe the fact that most ML7s and Super 7s are likely to have had a bit less wear, whereas a Boxford might have seen more hard usage).

I can only imagine it's people who have way too.much money to spend and for whatever reason, want to "Buy British". How RDG Tools has any volume of sales beats me.

Scribing with your calipers is not the appropriate way to care for them, but a common thing that people do. However I think it is very much like people posting on a chuck key being left in the chuck, when it is very clearly not being used (staged photo for a sale). There is a group of people who seem to lurk on the internet to point out less than perfect practices regardless of actual merit. I guess everybody needs a hobby.

I suspect Myford's main business is selling parts. Since they have the parts, why not offer some complete lathes for the occasional deep pockets buyer.

 

[GrifterGuru]

Talking of keys in chucks....

 

[wachuko]

Talking of keys in chucks....

Even with all the comments and warnings shared in this forum, I have been absentminded enough to leave the chuck key on… Man! That first time (and, knock on wood, only time so far) it happened to me, it scare the carps out of me. I have since, followed the recommendation here of spinning the chuck by hand before any operation….

 

[GrifterGuru]

Even with all the comments and warnings shared in this forum, I have been absentminded enough to leave the chuck key on… Man! That first time (and, knock on wood, only time so far) it happened to me, it scare the carps out of me.

Damn near left the bar-handle in my ER32 faceplate socket once... that could have effed up my day good and proper.

A (rather poor) Phone photo of the bar handle for my ER32 faceplate. Made one to my own spec using a chunk of EN3B round stock. Knurling is a little poor but does the job. For some reason the bar handle looks rusty but it is not, when not in use, it has a coating of protective oil.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

Even with all the comments and warnings shared in this forum, I have been absentminded enough to leave the chuck key on… Man! That first time (and, knock on wood, only time so far) it happened to me, it scare the carps out of me. I have since, followed the recommendation here of spinning the chuck by hand before any operation….

His lathe doesn't have much umph..... Mine made it across the garage at terminal velocity. I too now spin the chuck a turn before engaging it...