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Whole Shop And Machine-specific Help For Dunce

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JimDawson

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#61
I wondered about the best approach and where GFCI should be used in the shop.
A couple of options
  • One or more GFCI breakers in your single phase panel
  • A GFCI outlet in each 120V circuit.

So basically, the 240 3phase to power the lathe motor, but we're just going to do a separate circuit altogether for controls/accessories. That actually makes good sense. Does this mean I'll need like a "master power on/off" for the 120v control circuits?
If you plug it into an outlet, a master switch is not really needed. The way I do it on my lathe is the E-stop switch serves as the ''master''. On my mill, I do have a master switch for the 120V power, but it's not really needed since it plugs into the wall. The switch was in the panel when I got the mill and would require actual effort to remove it.:grin:

Speaking of wall receptacles for 120V, buy the good ones, 20 Amp, industrial or heavy duty. They are about $5 each vs. the $0.95 ones, well worth the price difference in the long run.

I just wasn't understanding where.,. If my 3 phase is in one panel, my single phase in another...
That would be difficult to install.;)
 

markamerica

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#62
A couple of options
  • One or more GFCI breakers in your single phase panel
  • A GFCI outlet in each 120V circuit.

If you plug it into an outlet, a master switch is not really needed. The way I do it on my lathe is the E-stop switch serves as the ''master''. On my mill, I do have a master switch for the 120V power, but it's not really needed since it plugs into the wall. The switch was in the panel when I got the mill and would require actual effort to remove it.:grin:

Speaking of wall receptacles for 120V, buy the good ones, 20 Amp, industrial or heavy duty. They are about $5 each vs. the $0.95 ones, well worth the price difference in the long run.


That would be difficult to install.;)
Thanks Jim!

As far as 120v receptacles, yes, absolutely, 20 amp high quality will be used. Our rinky-dink shack(also known as our home) has the world's cheapest crap outlets, 15 amp, and they don't hold a power cord even against the gravity weight of the end of the cord. I hate those cheap outlets. I've replaced a couple of the more annoying ones over time, but yes, in the shop, all good stuff for outlets. I just have to think about the number of times I've had to walk back and re-plug something in the shack because the plug fell out of the darned things. This isn't as big a problem with grounded plugs, but on simple stuff with no ground prong, it's a nuisance.

I definitely want to do the GFCI breakers, and I've always liked the idea since they came along. I especially like them wherever moisture is even a remote possibility, like near sinks, outdoor outlets, etc. What I really like is that if you have multiple outlets on a single circuit, a single GFCI receptacle provides protection to the whole circuit.

Thanks!

Mark
 

John Hasler

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#63
I definitely want to do the GFCI breakers, and I've always liked the idea since they came along. I especially like them wherever moisture is even a remote possibility, like near sinks, outdoor outlets, etc. What I really like is that if you have multiple outlets on a single circuit, a single GFCI receptacle provides protection to the whole circuit.
If you like crap outlets you'll love GFCI receptacles, especially the ones that can be daisy-chained as you describe. The target market is developers trying to comply with code at minimum cost. They fail frequently: a friend actually had one catch fire. I suggest that you either buy real GFCI breakers or do without. If all your 120V stuff is either three-wire or double-insulated I suggest that you consider Class C GFCIs (20ma rather than 5) to reduce nuisance tripping. And, of course, buy quality which in breakers pretty much means Square D.

[Edit] Here is an informative document: http://www.csemag.com/single-article/ul-s-new-gfci-classes/89c8746cdc4a7fd8a3cb93f1d51ba57a.html
 
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John Hasler

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#64
John, I know what a handle tie is. I just wasn't understanding where.,. If my 3 phase is in one panel, my single phase in another... Or am I missing something again? Sorry...

Mark
Can't be done with out relaying (you don't want to go there). You'll have to rely on prominent labeling. I suggest two neon or LED pilot lights, one powered by each circuit, on the panel of the machine.
 

markamerica

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#65
If you like crap outlets you'll love GFCI receptacles, especially the ones that can be daisy-chained as you describe. The target market is developers trying to comply with code at minimum cost. They fail frequently: a friend actually had one catch fire. I suggest that you either buy real GFCI breakers or do without. If all your 120V stuff is either three-wire or double-insulated I suggest that you consider Class C GFCIs (20ma rather than 5) to reduce nuisance tripping. And, of course, buy quality which in breakers pretty much means Square D.

[Edit] Here is an informative document: http://www.csemag.com/single-article/ul-s-new-gfci-classes/89c8746cdc4a7fd8a3cb93f1d51ba57a.html
John,

Here are the 120 circuit breakers I intended to use: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-H...l-Function-AFCI-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker/50311123

All my panels are Square D. My meter bases, my main throw switch(on the service poles) are all Square D. So at least I got that right...LOL

Can't be done with out relaying (you don't want to go there). You'll have to rely on prominent labeling. I suggest two neon or LED pilot lights, one powered by each circuit, on the panel of the machine.
Yeah, that's what I thought. I figure I can do a master power indicator of some sort for the 120, and a motor power indicator like the machine originally had. I definitely don't want one more relay than I absolutely need...

Thanks!
 

4GSR

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#66
Mark, not to speak in the place of Jim or John, who are much more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the code, I would stay away from AFCI breakers in general for the shop since it is detached from your house. In my house upgrade me and my electrician did last year, we tried to install several AFCI breakers. Could not get any of them to stay on, kept tripping. What we determined was any neutral wire that crossed over an hot wire, it would trip the AFCI breaker. We finally took them out. It's old work, code says, don't necessarily need them even though it is encouraged to install them. I do use GFCI breakers for my shop plugs and those outside the house. Ken
 

markamerica

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#67
Mark, not to speak in the place of Jim or John, who are much more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the code, I would stay away from AFCI breakers in general for the shop since it is detached from your house. In my house upgrade me and my electrician did last year, we tried to install several AFCI breakers. Could not get any of them to stay on, kept tripping. What we determined was any neutral wire that crossed over an hot wire, it would trip the AFCI breaker. We finally took them out. It's old work, code says, don't necessarily need them even though it is encouraged to install them. I do use GFCI breakers for my shop plugs and those outside the house. Ken
Hmmm. I'll keep that in mind. I wonder why. BTW, my motor arrived in good order today, picked it up at the local freight terminal... Looks like a million bucks. Weighs like it too...LOL

Mark
 

John Hasler

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#68
Mark, not to speak in the place of Jim or John, who are much more knowledgeable than me when it comes to the code, I would stay away from AFCI breakers in general for the shop since it is detached from your house. In my house upgrade me and my electrician did last year, we tried to install several AFCI breakers. Could not get any of them to stay on, kept tripping. What we determined was any neutral wire that crossed over an hot wire, it would trip the AFCI breaker. We finally took them out. It's old work, code says, don't necessarily need them even though it is encouraged to install them. I do use GFCI breakers for my shop plugs and those outside the house. Ken
I agree. Don't use AFCI breakers in a shop. In fact, don't use them anywhere they aren't required, and perhaps not even there.
 

John Hasler

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#69
John,

Here are the 120 circuit breakers I intended to use: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-H...l-Function-AFCI-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker/50311123

All my panels are Square D. My meter bases, my main throw switch(on the service poles) are all Square D. So at least I got that right...LOL



Yeah, that's what I thought. I figure I can do a master power indicator of some sort for the 120, and a motor power indicator like the machine originally had. I definitely don't want one more relay than I absolutely need...

Thanks!
Ok. Just be sure the indicators are upstream of any on/off switches or contactors: they should be lit when the circuit is live even if the machine is turned off.
 

markamerica

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#70
Ok. Just be sure the indicators are upstream of any on/off switches or contactors: they should be lit when the circuit is live even if the machine is turned off.
John, Right, that's the whole reason I'd want an indicator for the 120v control power, as opposed to just the spindle motor power indicator with which the machine was equipped from the factory. If I'm going to have a separate 120v circuit to control the rest of the machine, I need to know whether that circuit is also live. Just makes good sense. Since the machine did not have such a circuit originally, it's my thinking to place that indicator up top and apart from the originals. Makes it distinct...

Having mentioned that, I managed to unload the new motor from the truck this evening. Boy am I glad I have the tractor. Makes quick work of 300lbs. I'll probably fashion a sling to dismount the old motor and mount the new one so that I can use the tractor for the lift. I think this weekend, I'll be pulling off the old motor, and begin some serious cleaning before I mount the new one. A ton of work to be sure.

By the way, it seems odd that I am having trouble finding the GFCI-only circuit breakers to fit my single-phase panel. I can find used ones, but all the new ones are also AFCI, unless I happen to stumble into some NOS trove somewhere. I was reading on this a little, and that seems to be the way it's all going.

Thanks John!

Mark
 

markamerica

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Okay, time for an update. So I managed to find some NOS GFI breakers for my single phase panel. That's good news. I also managed to pull off the switch panel from the front of the lathe. Turns out, the panel bolts on from the front with a pair of socket head screws, one at each end. Once you pull it out, the wire bundle is all that supports it. It has a box that covers all of the switches and wiring. Here are a couple of pictures. The switches seem to be 30mm through the holes on the face of the panel. (Well, the holes are probably 30mm, the threads seemed to be around 29.7xy mm): Here are the pics(the item on the far left is the power indicator socket, near as I can tell):
upload04.jpg upload05.jpg

As I was looking at the motor, and how I'll go about mounting the new one, I noticed something I hadn't before. The clutch linkage runs via a shaft from the front, through a pillow block, and then to a linkage rod to the middle of the gear case. As it is currently configured, it would interfere with the Stearns brake on the motor. Question: Can I manufacture a new rod, assuming sufficient rigidity, that would allow me to move the pivot on the end of the shaft inward(closer to the machine) on the 25mm shaft, so that I could essentially avoid interference with the Stearns Brake? The linkage rod is 14mm with 2mm pitch, about 17" long, center to center of the rod ends. It's perfectly straight of course, but I'd basically make a new rod with two right angles to avoid the interference. Here are some pictures of the problem:

As you can see looking at this first picture, that would interfere with the Stearns Brake.
upload06.jpg

As you may be able to see here, there's about 2-1/2 or 3" inches of shaft between the pillow-block and the lever, which is simply roll-pinned to the shaft:
upload07.jpg

Here's a slightly better look at the shaft.
upload08.jpg

So what I propose is to shorten the shaft, moving the roll-pin hole and the control arm back close to the pillow-block. Theoretically, I could even flip it over on the shaft, placing the rod in the same vertical plane with the pillow-block, and that would basically clear the plane of the inside edge of the motor entirely. Thoughts?

As it is, the Hoffman enclosure that originally came with the lathe(and was missing) is set out about 3 inches to clear that linkage, and hinged on the left edge(as viewed from behind the lathe) allowing it to swing out for adjustment/lube of the upper control arm. I figure to essentially remake that same set-up, although the enclosure I purchased is about 6 inches taller, so will extend up about 6 inches above the level of the gear case. Thinking about this, could I place additional indicator lights and or switches directly through the back of the Hoffman enclosure, so I could see them from the front?

BTW, Jim, that one picture I had posted a while back that showed some sort of contactor or something, I finally retook that picture so here that is:
upload03.jpg

Lastly, I'm having heck with the pulley. First of all, I'm unfamiliar with this sort of fixture. In these pictures, I've removed the bolt in the end of the shaft for better clarity:

upload00.jpg

There are no set-screws of any sort I can find. There's a woodruff key, of course

upload01.jpg

As you can see by the last picture, looking at the back of the pulley, there's nothing there either.
upload02.jpg

I've managed to better measure the dimensions of the pulley itself. It's very near 9-3/4" outside diameter. It is almost precisely 2" wide, front rim face to back rim face. The belt grooves appear to be very near to 12mm at the top(outside edge), and the grooves are .577" or 14.67mm deep. The central hub doesn't appear to have an offset. I've got to figure out an equivalent, using a taper-bushing type, since of course, the new motor's shaft isn't threaded.
 

JimDawson

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#72
BTW, Jim, that one picture I had posted a while back that showed some sort of contactor or something, I finally retook that picture so here that is:
I don't know what that is. Never seen anything quite like it.

I'm guessing that pulley is a tight press fit. That's common in German machines. It's just pulled into place with the bolt.
 

markamerica

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I don't know what that is. Never seen anything quite like it.

I'm guessing that pulley is a tight press fit. That's common in German machines. It's just pulled into place with the bolt.
Jim, as for that electrical device, looking at the remnants of such wiring as I am able, I believe this is the first place electricity touched the machine. Not certain of it. I believe RST are the 3 phase legs, and N maybe neutral?? Of course, you can see the ground lug there at upper right. All I know for sure is it goes under a small cast cover on the back of the headstock pedestal. There's a notch in that cover for wiring to enter, and then the wiring at the top of this device departs through the wall of the pedestal.
 

John Hasler

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BTW, Jim, that one picture I had posted a while back that showed some sort of contactor or something, I finally retook that picture so here that is:
Looks like a set of contacts on a DIN rail. Can you get a picture from another angle so that we can see whether there is any sort of mechanism in it?
 

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#76
Mark,

Rather than rasel with getting that sheave off the motor shaft, how about buying a new sheave, guessing either 3V or A section groove with a taper lock bushing to fit the new motor shaft. As the existing sheave will be metric bore which will not fit the new motor shaft. And would be a bigger headache trying to use it than buying something more easier to fit up to the new motor.

Ken
 

markamerica

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#77
Maybe just a terminal block then.
Jim,

You and John are exactly right. It's a series of terminal bars mounted on a din type rail. It looked like a single fixture until I dismounted it, and then the insulating cases are brittle and began to fall apart. Here's a picture from the end:

upload11.jpg

As for the accessory/brake shaft on the head-stock, here is a picture. Notice the green leads dangling. Apparently, the brake mounted to the circle of socket-head screws, and the rotor rode the shaft. At least that's what I'd guess:

upload10.jpg

Lastly, from the headstock end of the gearbox, after removing the old motor just so I can begin cleaning all of it, I found 37 years worth of chips built up under the gear-case:

upload12.jpg

The other thing this last photo made plain to me is the construction of this series of lathes. Apparently, the bed runs end to end. The gear case is common as is the bed. What changes, near as I can tell, is the plate shown in this last photo on which the gear case rests. If you look closely, the gear-case has its own ways, and to the right of this last photo, you can see the clamp-bar that holds it down to the ways at this end. You can actually see one of the 90 degree ways at the top of the curved rail there. So my speculation is that if you had a 50x series, you got this gear case. If you had a 60x, or 70x series, you got gear cases 10 and 20 cm taller(with respect to spindle centerline.) Of course, the tail stock and steady rests would change accordingly too, and I think it would necessitate a change on the change gears for the sake of making the lead screw and etc run. Typical German modularity, best I can tell. Fun fun. Now that I have the old motor out of the way, it's soaking with a degreaser. I just want to get some of the dirt and grease and grime off of it so I can brush up against it without turning my clothing to greasy rags. And the work continues...LOL
 

markamerica

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So I've been looking around for switches... Obviously, I want round face push-buttons that fit snuggly in a 30mm hole. Illuminated switches would be nice. What switching mechanism is appropriate here? I wouldn't want to use momentary switches for these, right?
 

John Hasler

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So I've been looking around for switches... Obviously, I want round face push-buttons that fit snuggly in a 30mm hole. Illuminated switches would be nice. What switching mechanism is appropriate here? I wouldn't want to use momentary switches for these, right?
For machine control you are usually controlling latching contactors and want SPDT momentary switches. Looks like you've already got some in that panel. How are you going to use the switches?
 
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markamerica

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For machine control you are usually controlling latching contactors and want SPDT momentary switches. Looks like you've already got some in that panel. How are you going to use the switches?
John, yeah, there are some there, but they're pretty beat up. I'm thinking about replacing the works and be done with it.

For the motor starter you will want momentary, Start, Normally Open (NO), for the Stop, Normally Closed (NC)
For the Estop, Maintained, Twist release, NC
For the lamp and coolant pump, Maintained Selector, NO

Try this
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pushbuttons_-z-_Switches_-z-_Indicators
Nice. Thanks Jim! So what I need:
I'm going to need that "master" power circuit to activate the controls. I figure something with an amber light, or at least an amber indicator?
I'm going to need a green button, and a red button.
I'm going to need blue for coolant.
Lamp can be plain/white.

The E-Stop button will need to be linked to that Stearns Brake, so I assume the way that will work is pulled out, the circuit will be closed, permitting the brake to be disengaged, and when I push it in, it will open, and the brake gets applied. Or maybe I'm making it too simple. Will I need to put a relay in place? The next question along those lines... One of the things I read that is a recommendation for lathes over a certain bed length is to have TWO E-stop switches... One at the Headstock somewhere in easy reach, and one mounted in easy reach on the carriage. So follow my ignorance a step further. Is the way to do this approximately like: The two E-Stop switches are in series, and if either is pushed-in (Open) then that breaks the circuit that energizes the relay that when energized, sends power to the brake, which then disengages? Roughly?

I've been looking at coolant systems just because. What I've decided is that I ought to provision for a 3 phase coolant pump, probably in the 1/8-1/4HP range, that would be electrically integrated to the machine, via an accessory socket like the one the machine already has... Anything less than that, I can do as an adjunct free-standing circuit separate from the machine anyway... Sound reasonable?

So the idea, I think, would be like this:
Turn on "master" (Control circuit) power which would be my separate 120v circuit. This should then do the following:
Turn on an indicator
Enable the E-Stop Circuit (Provide power to a relay for the the brake to disengage it) and I assume stops the main motor.
Enable the Starter Circuit (Provide power to the starter button)
Enable the Pump Circuit(Provide power to the Pump Switch)
Enable the Lamp Circuit(Provide power to the lamp switch)

At that point, hitting the E-Stop switch should de-energize the relay, and the brake should apply.
Pressing the Starter button should power up the main motor
Turning on the Pump Circuit should power a relay to power the accessory plug(3-phase)
Turning on the Lamp circuit should just turn on a 120v lamp socket.

Once the motor is running, does the stop switch break the main motor circuit, or how does that work exactly?

Sorry, I'm just trying to work all this out in my head, and there's plenty of bone to penetrate...
 

JimDawson

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#83
I'm going to need that "master" power circuit to activate the controls. I figure something with an amber light, or at least an amber indicator?
A lighted pushbutton would be my choice here.

The two E-Stop switches are in series, and if either is pushed-in (Open) then that breaks the circuit that energizes the relay that when energized, sends power to the brake, which then disengages? Roughly?
Yes, wired in series. Pushing in either E-stop would deenergize the Control Power (master) circuit, and thus deenergize the brake

What I've decided is that I ought to provision for a 3 phase coolant pump, probably in the 1/8-1/4HP range, that would be electrically integrated to the machine, via an accessory socket like the one the machine already has...
To add in a 3PH coolant pump, you will need to add a small motor starter and related circuit.

So the idea, I think, would be like this:
Turn on "master" (Control circuit) power which would be my separate 120v circuit. This should then do the following:
Turn on an indicator
Enable the E-Stop Circuit (Provide power to a relay for the the brake to disengage it) and I assume stops the main motor.
Enable the Starter Circuit (Provide power to the starter button)
Enable the Pump Circuit(Provide power to the Pump Switch)
Enable the Lamp Circuit(Provide power to the lamp switch)
The E-stop drops out the control power so everything is deenergized. You would have to push the control power button after an E-stop to start again.

I would put the work lamp ahead of the control power relay as shown in the schematic, that way you can turn on the work lamp even if the E-stop is pushed. Other than that, I think you've got it.

Once the motor is running, does the stop switch break the main motor circuit, or how does that work exactly?
Yes, the motor stop switch is wired in series with the ''seal in'' contacts in the motor starter. So pushing the stop button deenergizes the motor starter.
 

markamerica

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#84
A lighted pushbutton would be my choice here.
Hmm. I was looking at the site you linked earlier. I like the look of the Cutler Hammer switches and so on. A bit more pricey, but I think they look like they might be reasonably sturdy. Any tips on that front? Also, I noticed all their illuminated pushbutton switches seem to be momentary, except for the mushroom head type, which they only have red and green in illuminated. Maybe I missed some... Wouldn't be the first time. Thanks for the tip though, as it was certainly better than some I'd been looking at.

Yes, wired in series. Pushing in either E-stop would deenergize the Control Power (master) circuit, and thus deenergize the brake
This raises another question. Don't take it overly seriously, but I wondered: Could I make a brake switch that would 1.) stop the motor and 2.) apply the brake without killing master power? I wonder this in the instance in which I want to stop the spindle, but not cut the power, and here I'm thinking about threading operations. I realize this would complicate matters... Mostly spit-balling.


To add in a 3PH coolant pump, you will need to add a small motor starter and related circuit.
Right, I could put in the front end for now, maybe omit a fuse, and come back and add the pump and starter later? Here, I am just considering running the switch wiring for now even if it does nothing until some future date. I've looked at how I'm going to need to run wires, and think it would be best to do so if possible.

The E-stop drops out the control power so everything is deenergized. You would have to push the control power button after an E-stop to start again.
Right, and this is why I asked what I did about a separate braking function.

I would put the work lamp ahead of the control power relay as shown in the schematic, that way you can turn on the work lamp even if the E-stop is pushed. Other than that, I think you've got it.
Makes sense to me. Glad I'm starting to understand the chore at hand. It's really not that complex. It's just that I want to build it once, build it right, and be done.

Yes, the motor stop switch is wired in series with the ''seal in'' contacts in the motor starter. So pushing the stop button deenergizes the motor starter.
See, this is where my unfamiliarity with 3 phase motors and their starters really hurts me. I'll have to see how that is all wired once or twice to start to absorb it. Nothing like hands-on.... I know, I know, my string of questions would never indicate I design and simulate circuits like this one:
amp_schem.jpg
Thanks for your patience and help, Jim!

Mark
 
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JimDawson

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#85
Hmm. I was looking at the site you linked earlier. I like the look of the Cutler Hammer switches and so on. A bit more pricey, but I think they look like they might be reasonably sturdy. Any tips on that front? Also, I noticed all their illuminated pushbutton switches seem to be momentary, except for the mushroom head type, which they only have red and green in illuminated. Maybe I missed some... Wouldn't be the first time. Thanks for the tip though, as it was certainly better than some I'd been looking at.
They have all the normal colors, you just need to spend some time browsing. ;) Be careful of what you order, you want to make sure you get the operator and the contact block. Cutler Hammer is top of the line NEMA rated products, but certainly not cheap. I only buy from industrial electrical vendors, trying to by off of Ebay or something like that is a PITA. I want the full product catalog with all of the specs and documentation to go through when I buy. Besides orders over $49 get free 2 day shipping.:)


This raises another question. Don't take it overly seriously, but I wondered: Could I make a brake switch that would 1.) stop the motor and 2.) apply the brake without killing master power? I wonder this in the instance in which I want to stop the spindle, but not cut the power, and here I'm thinking about threading operations. I realize this would complicate matters... Mostly spit-balling.
Sure, anything is possible. But I think your spindle is engaged with a clutch, so that would have to remain engaged for the motor brake to work. This would not really be a good way to stop a lathe. It is also possible that there is a mechanical brake in the spindle clutch system, not sure.

Right, I could put in the front end for now, maybe omit a fuse, and come back and add the pump and starter later? Here, I am just considering running the switch wiring for now even if it does nothing until some future date. I've looked at how I'm going to need to run wires, and think it would be best to do so if possible
I would just put the switch on the front panel, and run the wires into the electrical cabinet. Then later, you can add the pump motor starter if you want.

That schematic looks kinda like a DC motor controller, looks like it has an H-Bridge in it. I can't see the text well enough to tell for sure.
 

markamerica

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#86
They have all the normal colors, you just need to spend some time browsing. ;) Be careful of what you order, you want to make sure you get the operator and the contact block. Cutler Hammer is top of the line NEMA rated products, but certainly not cheap. I only buy from industrial electrical vendors, trying to by off of Ebay or something like that is a PITA. I want the full product catalog with all of the specs and documentation to go through when I buy. Besides orders over $49 get free 2 day shipping.:)




Sure, anything is possible. But I think your spindle is engaged with a clutch, so that would have to remain engaged for the motor brake to work. This would not really be a good way to stop a lathe. It is also possible that there is a mechanical brake in the spindle clutch system, not sure.



I would just put the switch on the front panel, and run the wires into the electrical cabinet. Then later, you can add the pump motor starter if you want.

That schematic looks kinda like a DC motor controller, looks like it has an H-Bridge in it. I can't see the text well enough to tell for sure.
Jim,

Thanks! I will dig around some more. The Eaton-Cutler-Hammer pieces sure look worth the money, relatively speaking. Should be worth my trouble and expense. I thought about putting one of their rotating red beacons up top for when the motor is running. An expensive option, and a little "bling," but hey, safety first...

As far as my brake question, I wondered about that: if I've got the load spinning, engage the brake, that would probably hammer the clutch, since the motor drive would be stopping but the inertia of the load would still be turning against the holding capacity of the clutch. Makes me wonder about the EM brake with which this was fitted from factory. I'm wondering if that brake was "after" the clutch, or before it in the gear chain. In other words, if the clutch was disengaged so the load is free-spinning, and that brake was applied, did it stop the load or the motor? I'll have to look at the gear case again to figure that out. I suspect it was linked to that e-stop switch, so it may be on the drive side of the clutch, rather than the driven side, if that makes sense.

My schematic there is a heavily modified audio power amplifier circuit. The original is a Soundcraftsmen amplifier of early-mid 80s vintage. My simulations with LTSpice are aimed at reducing THD for the amplifier to below .001% across its range. That particular iteration of my redesign got it down to < .0004%. I own several of these amplifiers. They're amazingly durable, and one corner of my shop will be dedicated as an electronics test bench with my distortion analyzer(s) and o-scope and so on. The circuit pictured here represents a single channel of the amplification circuit, and outputs a maximum of around 500w into a 4ohm load. Two such circuits per unit. They drive my big Polk SRS speakers, which will dissipate 1000w each @4ohms nominal impedance. They get bi-amped. (Two amplifiers driving the load, split high freq and low freq).

So when I decide to shake my rinky-dink shack, it gets a little loud.

Thanks!

Mark
 

markamerica

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Jim,

Thanks! I will dig around some more. The Eaton-Cutler-Hammer pieces sure look worth the money, relatively speaking. Should be worth my trouble and expense. I thought about putting one of their rotating red beacons up top for when the motor is running. An expensive option, and a little "bling," but hey, safety first...

As far as my brake question, I wondered about that: if I've got the load spinning, engage the brake, that would probably hammer the clutch, since the motor drive would be stopping but the inertia of the load would still be turning against the holding capacity of the clutch. Makes me wonder about the EM brake with which this was fitted from factory. I'm wondering if that brake was "after" the clutch, or before it in the gear chain. In other words, if the clutch was disengaged so the load is free-spinning, and that brake was applied, did it stop the load or the motor? I'll have to look at the gear case again to figure that out. I suspect it was linked to that e-stop switch, so it may be on the drive side of the clutch, rather than the driven side, if that makes sense.

My schematic there is a heavily modified audio power amplifier circuit. The original is a Soundcraftsmen amplifier of early-mid 80s vintage. My simulations with LTSpice are aimed at reducing THD for the amplifier to below .001% across its range. That particular iteration of my redesign got it down to < .0004%. I own several of these amplifiers. They're amazingly durable, and one corner of my shop will be dedicated as an electronics test bench with my distortion analyzer(s) and o-scope and so on. The circuit pictured here represents a single channel of the amplification circuit, and outputs a maximum of around 500w into a 4ohm load. Two such circuits per unit. They drive my big Polk SRS speakers, which will dissipate 1000w each @4ohms nominal impedance. They get bi-amped. (Two amplifiers driving the load, split high freq and low freq).

So when I decide to shake my rinky-dink shack, it gets a little loud.

Thanks!

Mark
Oh, two other quick things:
Remember my door safety switch? Ought I fix that as well?

As far as the question of a mechanical brake, not sure how that would work on this beast, if present. I guess another reason to take another look in the gearcase. Dang, that lid is heavy....LOL

Thanks!

Mark
 

markamerica

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#88
Oh, one last thing, not electrical: I figured out that this beast requires change gears as other speculated. There are no additional gears present. (Bummer) The gears on it are for metric. We're investigating through that German outfit if the other gears are available. Particularly, the 115T and 60T that would permit cutting imperial threads... Basically, it uses 3 59T gears, a 118T and I think the other is an 86T to cut metric threads. To go to imperial, you replace one of the 59s with a 60, and the 118 with the 115.

For the other two thread types supported, it requires three other gears, best I can discern.

I'm not so concerned with DP ore modulus threads, but the imperials, why yes, of course!
 

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#89
Very cool amp. OK, it makes sense now, what I took to be an H-bridge is actually a push-pull amp. I have never worked on audio electronics.;)

I guess I wouldn't worry too much about the door switch for a home shop, unless you are prone to sticking your fingers into moving gears:grin:

My Jet lathe has a mechanical brake that is applied by a foot pedal. When applied, it drops out the motor contactor. But I have never used it, and the linkage has been removed.
 

markamerica

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Very cool amp. OK, it makes sense now, what I took to be an H-bridge is actually a push-pull amp. I have never worked on audio electronics.;)

I guess I wouldn't worry too much about the door switch for a home shop, unless you are prone to sticking your fingers into moving gears:grin:

My Jet lathe has a mechanical brake that is applied by a foot pedal. When applied, it drops out the motor contactor. But I have never used it, and the linkage has been removed.
Thanks Jim!

Sorry for the late reply. Was busy through the weekend getting ready for Monday's concrete pour. It went okay. More room for my shop now, and a slab ready for machines.

I wondered, given something insurgent K said, if I couldn't build a brake using that shaft on my Martin. Maybe a foot-operated hydraulic brake? I'd have to do the same thing, dropping out the main motor, but that just makes sense. I figure something could be adapted, Ken having mentioned ATV brakes or similar. That would probably work, but the hard part will be the splined rotor hub, I suspect.

More to think about...
 
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