Whole Shop And Machine-specific Help For Dunce

JimDawson said:
Standardize your 3 phase wire colors so you know which is the manufactured leg through the whole system. I would use Purple, Orange, Yellow. On wire sizes larger than 10, you may have to get Black wire, and identify the ends with colored tape. Save Black, Red, White for the single phase system. Green of course is ground in all cases.
Click to expand...


Jim,

I was pricing wire, and it dawned on me that I ought to think about the size wire I need. (On the 3 phase side of things.) I want to break up colors as you suggest, and I'm hunting around to see if I can find colored wires in appropriate sizes. Should 8AWG be sufficient for the 3-phase distribution? The biggest single load, by far, would be the lathe at around 40amps. Am I okay at 8AWG, or do I need to bump to 6? The RPC I was looking at, they recommended a minimum 8AWG copper for the 60amp single phase supply. I'm just trying to figure with the 15HP 40amp lathe motor, which will be the single biggest device by a fair bit, whether I ought to do 8AWG there too.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Mark
 
markamerica said:
I'm just trying to figure with the 15HP 40amp lathe motor, which will be the single biggest device by a fair bit, whether I ought to do 8AWG there too.
Click to expand...

I would use #8 to feed the lathe.
 
Jim,

Thanks! The thing that's easy to forget is the distance, which is why I like that little calculator linked above. For most household and small power tool items, it's well within the limits of a standard extension cord, but I have a small portable 20gal compressor I keep in the small shed next to the house, runs on 110, but you'd better not plug it in with an extension cord of inferior quality. Won't run and cord will get very hot very quick. 40 amps 60 line-feet from the supply is way different from 20 amps 12 feet from the supply, as are the differences for shortest and longest as well as largest and smallest loads as I lay out my 3 phase plans.

It's a consideration easy to forget.

Glad you guys are here to bounce my thinking against. Sometimes just typing it out forces me to slow down, organize my thoughts, and be smarter.

Thanks!

Mark
 
Okay, so let me start down the machine-specific part of this thread again:

With respect to the lathe, I'm basically a blank slate. Here's what I need: I need a basic circuit, to begin with, that includes the following:
Transformer to step down from the 230v 3 phase for controls voltage.
Whatever I need with respect to fuses at the machine(in the Hoffman enclosure).
Whatever it takes to start the motor.
Some sort of thermal overload protection.
I'll put a separate disconnect at the machine.
I've obtained a Hoffman enclosure for a song that should be more than sufficient.
(By the way, in the same deal, I also obtained a 3 phase load center that should work just fine for the output side of the phase converter.)

I need to begin sorting out what the actual parts need to be and also what the wiring needs to look like. I know I'm going to need to replace at least two of the four switches, so I've decided I will replace them all. The e-stop switch also looks like it's been through a war, and the case is cracked and half the button is missing. So add that to the list.

Got a super deal on a motor. It's on the way. This motor has a feature that should make that e-stop switch more useful: It's a brake motor. NOS Reliance 15HP motor with a Stearns self-adjusting, solenoid-actuated brake. The brake is a 1-085-051-00QF. The manufacturer website is here: http://www.rexnord.com/Products-Ser...rol/PT-Drive-Components/Brakes/Stearns-Brakes. Of course, now I'll have to figure out how to wire it all up, but if it's not one thing, it's another. This particular brake model is covered on pages 17-20 of their catalog: http://www.rexnord.com/ContentItems...tearnsCatalog_Stearns_Full_Stearns_Catalog-pd

Also, looking for a simple circuit diagram for a compressor (3 phase 10 HP). The compressor I have seems to be missing some stuff. (It's an Ingersol Rand T30 vertical 120 gal tank, 2-stage with intercooler.) So it looks like I've got more than one to straighten out some. Okay, the lathe is a complete blank slate, but you know what I mean.

Thanks!

Mark
 
You do realize that the brake is mechanically applied, solenoid release? Not an impossible situation for wiring, but makes it more interesting. It does have a mechanical release knob on it.

Before we get too deep into this, I think Ken has a number of bits and pieces as he mentioned earlier.

EDIT: I'm assuming here that the spindle is mechanical For/Rev

The major components are:
  • Switches
  • Control transformer, 200VA should be fine
  • At least a NEMA size 2 motor starter for the spindle motor, 120V coil
  • Proper heaters for the motor starter (Need the motor nameplate amps to size)
  • Relay for the motor brake
  • Relay or motor starter for the coolant pump (motor starter if it's 3 phase)
  • Relay for control power
  • Fusing or breakers for the mains and control circuits
  • A disconnect switch (fused)
  • A panel for the enclosure if it doesn't have one
  • Various pieces of electrical hardware
Here is the basic 3 wire motor starter

upload_2016-10-12_16-41-44.png

I'll whip up something a bit more useful once I know more about the hardware you have.:)
 
Last edited:
JimDawson said:
You do realize that the brake is mechanically applied, solenoid release? Not an impossible situation for wiring, but makes it more interesting. It does have a mechanical release knob on it.

Before we get too deep into this, I think Ken has a number of bits and pieces as he mentioned earlier.

EDIT: I'm assuming here that the spindle is mechanical For/Rev

The major components are:
  • Switches
  • Control transformer, 200VA should be fine
  • At least a NEMA size 2 motor starter for the spindle motor, 120V coil
  • Proper heaters for the motor starter (Need the motor nameplate amps to size)
  • Relay for the motor brake
  • Relay or motor starter for the coolant pump (motor starter if it's 3 phase)
  • Relay for control power
  • Fusing or breakers for the mains and control circuits
  • A disconnect switch (fused)
  • A panel for the enclosure if it doesn't have one
  • Various pieces of electrical hardware
Here is the basic 3 wire motor starter

View attachment 137514

I'll whip up something a bit more useful once I know more about the hardware you have.:)
Click to expand...

Jim, Thank you!

Yes, I realize the motor is solenoid-released, manually applied. My understanding would be that this would be useful as an E-Stop brake. If I've misunderstood, shame on me. I know it has the manual release knob which can be used (I assumed) in a pinch if I needed to run the motor, and say for instance, the solenoid had failed, so that I couldn't electrically release the brake. Did I misunderstand this? As for the spindle forward and reverse, yes, manual.

I'm waiting on Ken(but I've urged him not to rush for my sake...I know he's got other things to do, and he's already been exceedingly kind, as have you all, btw, and thank you,) because I'm more than happy to pay for the parts I'll need if he has them. Much rather get them from him if he doesn't need them then from some seller on Ebay or from an electrical parts house if he can spare them.

As for the motor dataplate, and also the brake dataplate, here you are:
motor_dataplate_lg.jpg brake_data_plate_lg.jpg
Oh, and here's the motor. Dusty, but still unused and stored in a climate controlled storage room since it was minted:
motor_lg.jpg

I will start making the list.

I'll get a disconnect. The lathe will be hardwired so no need for sockets/plugs on this. You mentioned a fused disconnect specifically. Will 40amps get it here? I know the motor itself is rated at 40amps, but am I going to be drawing the whole smack? Doesn't load on the machine determine that to a fair extent? I guess I'm asking what my worst-case current demand is going to be with this. When you say "panel for the enclosure," you mean the add-on back panel? On the shopping list. I guess the ratings on the breakers I'll need for the various circuits will vary. As far as the pump outlet and lamp outlet this is supposed to have, I'd plan on 110/120v pump and lamp. I won't be buying a giant, heavy duty coolant setup unless I find that I'm really going to need it a lot more than I think I will. I was thinking something more modest. I may even try something more modest to begin with, like Kool Mist, which is air-powered. Point is, I don't see myself needing a heavy duty 3-phase coolant pump set up. Of course, the way my life goes... Realistically, I'm not going to be working at production pace by a long shot. On the other hand, if you're turning something large and doing many passes... What's your recommendation? Most of the time, my work on this lathe will skew heavily toward the lower end of its capabilities. I seriously doubt I'll ever approach even half of what it can do. I'm up for suggestions and advise on this in particular. Lamp is easy... 120v... Just probably a single bulb incandescent type. Nothing fancy. Truth is, I'm not wedded to any of these things being built into the lathe because I'll be able to add supporting circuits where I need them. The main thought I have is that the lathe was equipped with these things, so I'd like to maintain them on the lathe if feasible.

Once we sort out what I'll need, I'll check with Ken on which things he has on hand that he'd be willing to part with. Then I'll go part-shopping. Hopefully, you guys will be able to steer me from too much trouble...

Thanks Jim!

Mark

dataplate_motor.jpg
 
markamerica said:
Jim, Thank you!

Yes, I realize the motor is solenoid-released, manually applied. My understanding would be that this would be useful as an E-Stop brake. If I've misunderstood, shame on me. I know it has the manual release knob which can be used (I assumed) in a pinch if I needed to run the motor, and say for instance, the solenoid had failed, so that I couldn't electrically release the brake. Did I misunderstand this? As for the spindle forward and reverse, yes, manual.

I'm waiting on Ken(but I've urged him not to rush for my sake...I know he's got other things to do, and he's already been exceedingly kind, as have you all, btw, and thank you,) because I'm more than happy to pay for the parts I'll need if he has them. Much rather get them from him if he doesn't need them then from some seller on Ebay or from an electrical parts house if he can spare them.

As for the motor dataplate, and also the brake dataplate, here you are:
View attachment 137521 View attachment 137522
Oh, and here's the motor. Dusty, but still unused and stored in a climate controlled storage room since it was minted:
View attachment 137523

I will start making the list.

I'll get a disconnect. The lathe will be hardwired so no need for sockets/plugs on this. You mentioned a fused disconnect specifically. Will 40amps get it here? I know the motor itself is rated at 40amps, but am I going to be drawing the whole smack? Doesn't load on the machine determine that to a fair extent? I guess I'm asking what my worst-case current demand is going to be with this. When you say "panel for the enclosure," you mean the add-on back panel? On the shopping list. I guess the ratings on the breakers I'll need for the various circuits will vary. As far as the pump outlet and lamp outlet this is supposed to have, I'd plan on 110/120v pump and lamp. I won't be buying a giant, heavy duty coolant setup unless I find that I'm really going to need it a lot more than I think I will. I was thinking something more modest. I may even try something more modest to begin with, like Kool Mist, which is air-powered. Point is, I don't see myself needing a heavy duty 3-phase coolant pump set up. Of course, the way my life goes... Realistically, I'm not going to be working at production pace by a long shot. On the other hand, if you're turning something large and doing many passes... What's your recommendation? Most of the time, my work on this lathe will skew heavily toward the lower end of its capabilities. I seriously doubt I'll ever approach even half of what it can do. I'm up for suggestions and advise on this in particular. Lamp is easy... 120v... Just probably a single bulb incandescent type. Nothing fancy. Truth is, I'm not wedded to any of these things being built into the lathe because I'll be able to add supporting circuits where I need them. The main thought I have is that the lathe was equipped with these things, so I'd like to maintain them on the lathe if feasible.

Once we sort out what I'll need, I'll check with Ken on which things he has on hand that he'd be willing to part with. Then I'll go part-shopping. Hopefully, you guys will be able to steer me from too much trouble...

Thanks Jim!

Mark
Click to expand...
Oh, while I'm thinking about it... I'm probably going to need a pulley and taper adapter for the reasons I mentioned before. The OD of the pulley is right about exactly 10", and it is a 3-groove, looks like standard half-inch v-belts to me.

Good source that won't kill me? You've mentioned something on this before, and I'm either nuts or I'm scanning right past it, looking for it.

Thanks!
 
Jim,
The control xformer that I have is a .075 KVA. May not be big enough. It's the only one I have on hand. The starter is a size 2 AB 709 series I believe. Mark will need to get three heaters to install. Current heaters are for 440v. I have lots of AB push buttons with all sorts of contacts, N/C, N/O. Als0 have some control relays most 24v and some 120v. And a bunch of Buchanan terminal strips if Mark wants to put a strip in the panel for connecting wires to. All of this is surplus to my needs, most left over from dad's shop and machine rewires, and going crazy on eBay.
Jim, if you do a schematic/diagram of the basics of what he needs, I can go by it and say what I have and have not.

Ken
 
markamerica said:
Much rather get them from him if he doesn't need them then from some seller on Ebay or from an electrical parts house if he can spare them.
Click to expand...

I think it's time to introduce you to Automation Direct, my go to vendor. They have everything you need at reasonable prices. Not as cheap as ebay, but their service is great and FREE 2 day shipping on most orders. https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Home/Home

markamerica said:
I'll get a disconnect. The lathe will be hardwired so no need for sockets/plugs on this. You mentioned a fused disconnect specifically. Will 40amps get it here?
Click to expand...

No, You need to fuse for about 70 amps, Time Delay, 250V fuses, This will require a 100 amp disconnect.

markamerica said:
When you say "panel for the enclosure," you mean the add-on back panel? On the shopping list.
Click to expand...

Yup

markamerica said:
Lamp is easy... 120v... Just probably a single bulb incandescent type.
Click to expand...

Consider an LED lamp, it doesn't burn you when you touch the shade. ;) The panel switch will handle the current for the lamp so no relay required.

Spray mist coolant would be the way I would go. You could turn this on and off electrically.

markamerica said:
I'm probably going to need a pulley and taper adapter for the reasons I mentioned before. The OD of the pulley is right about exactly 10", and it is a 3-groove, looks like standard half-inch v-belts to me.
Good source that won't kill me? You've mentioned something on this before, and I'm either nuts or I'm scanning right past it, looking for it.
Click to expand...

These are my go to guys for power transmission products. Measure the belt profile and be sure to get the correct groove pulley. There is a difference between an A and 4L. Could be Metric also.
http://www.ametric.com/
 
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