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Yet another drum switch

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Headrc

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#1
Looking at all the threads about wiring drum switches I feel my motor is different. It is wired for 230 volts. Only four wires coming out of the motor with instructions on the motor to swap the yellow and red wires (no longer true yellow or red) for reversing. It has four terminals , two of them for line voltage and the three others.....with two of those strapped together. That is where the yellow or red wire apparently get swapped to reverse the direction of the motor. No ground or neutral terminals ...the previous owner just connected those to the frame of the motor. The drum switch I have is a Dayton 2x440. I think I have figured out a way to wire the drum switch to swap the red and yellow terminal connections ....but if anyone has experience with this situation ....advice is welcome. Thanks in advance. Richard
 

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Alexander McGilton

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#2
Be vary careful with what you are doing. It is defiantly a electrical code violation and a danger to ground the neutral wire. This is because should there be a resistance difference or more substantially a break in the ground you will receive a shock from the frame. Also be sure that you are feeding only 120V to the starting winding and capacitor and not 220V.
 

Alexander McGilton

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#3
Here is a wiring diagram. you are going to have to go deep in the motor to isolate the start windings and capacitor circuit as shown. Capture motor forward reverse2.JPG
 
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Headrc

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#4
Thanks...I should have mentioned that I am aware about tying neutral and ground together. One of the poles was not used by the previous owner and I wonder if that is actually where neutral should be connected. At the least I was going to try and ohm out that pole today and see what I could find. I thought I might have to open up the motor but was hoping to not have to do that. In your drawing Alexander could you specify which is the start capacitor and the start winding? I think I know ...but my reading of electric schematics/drawings is minimal and needs to be improved. Also you indicate two straps on the back wiring poles as opposed to the one that is there now ....but that bottom strap that is not there now connects to that pole that was not used before. Why is that? It does not look to be connected in your drawing to anything as well until the strap is applied.

Besides determining where neutral should be connected, if reversing the motor is just a matter of swapping the red and yellow wires as per the instructions on the motors casing ....if I wire up the switch to do just that would that not work? Dayton is horrible about providing motor model specific wiring diagrams/instructions on the web. I could not find them anywhere for the model of this motor. Thanks, Richard
 

CluelessNewB

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#5
Are you planning to hook it up for 115V or 230V?

If you are planning for 230V you don't need a neutral at all. If you are hooking it up for 115V neutral will be connected to one of the "Line" terminals and it doesn't really make any difference which is hot (black) and which is neutral (white). If there is no ground terminal you can connect the ground (green) to the motor case. Do not just wrap bare wires around screws (except for testing) , use a proper crimp on ring terminal!

You may find that there are actually two jumpers stacked together, you can use one of them if you need a second jumper for 115V.
 

Headrc

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#6
I am going to wire it up for 230V ...which is how the previous owner used it.
 

markba633csi

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#7
Give me a second and I'll post a diagram for you
mark
 

Alexander McGilton

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#8
Ignore that lower strap, That is is a renominate from when I was reverse enginieared the original wirering. The bottom coil in the drawing is the starting coil with the switch. You could do without the neutral wire if you instead have the neutral lead connected to the upper strap. That way the starting coil gets the intermediate voltage of the two main windings and one or the other phases.
 

markba633csi

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#9
This should work for you: (Don't forget the safety ground; I didn't show it)
Swap Line 1 and Line 2 at the drum if direction is backwards
DaytonDrum220XM.jpeg
DaytonPicmod220vm.jpeg Mark
 
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markba633csi

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#10
This is the easiest and simplest of all the drum switch hookups; it breaks both legs of the power when off and subjects the start leg and start cap to 1/2 the supply voltage which is usually desirable since most start caps are rated for 120v. You are right about Dayton; they don't make it easy sometimes.
Mark
ps you don't need a neutral for this connection, just a safety ground to the motor case, and the switch case too
 
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Headrc

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#11
Thanks ..in your diagram Mark ....and no neutral at all? And the safety ground for the switch I assume just connects to the casing? As well as to the casing of the motor?

For further examination I did take the back off ...here are some pics. I did confirm that the yellow wire goes to the start capacitor, but I could not ohm out any of the poles to the internal motor wiring. If this changes anything please let me know ....you guys are great! Richard
 

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Alexander McGilton

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#12
You don't need a neutral if the start winding is wired to one of the phases and to the middle of the two main windings. All casings should be earth grounded. If your hunting around with the ohm meter you may as well short the capacitor for now as it is effectively non conductive to low voltage DC. On the the forth image you have confirmed my prediction that there is a strap to the bottom two lugs of the five points.
 

markba633csi

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#13
Yes, and yes. Just reassemble and connect, should work. Let me know if it doesn't. Be careful.
M
 

Headrc

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#14
I wired it like Mark suggested ...and I see what is happening as far as the wiring goes. Basically the line voltage in is being switched going to the yellow wire (start capacitor) but this does not reverse the motor ...in fact the motor runs in reverse in both directions this way. Alexander...could you be specific with which wires go where with your diagram? Thank you, Richard
 

Alexander McGilton

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#15
I cant see why it would do that? Mark has a simplified version of mine with color and the leads to the start winding going from the strap.

Occam"s razor. Are you flicking the switch rapidly between forward and reverse? You need to let the motor come to a stop before reversing. or at least click, but that is hard on the motor.
 

Headrc

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#16
Yes I am letting motor come to a complete stop before I try the other direction. Either switch setting always runs the motor in reverse. The way it is wired ...it is not really swapping the red and yellow leads as the motor casing instructs. It is basically swapping the two 240 line leads feed to the yellow (capacitor start) wire. But it definitely only runs in reverse in both switch positions.
 

Headrc

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#17
Scratch that ....you were right I was not letting the motor come to an absolute complete halt. I did that ....and yes it reversing. Although in forward the motor is moving counterclockwise ....which would be in reverse (I think) ....so to correct that I should put the yellow lead on the center post of the other side of the switch I assume?
 

Alexander McGilton

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#18
Yes. On Mark's drawing put the yellow between the two 240V input. Mirror image.
 

markba633csi

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#19
Read post # 9 again, there's a fix for that
 

Headrc

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#21
Got it ...also I was thinking if I just swap the wiring on the start capacitor ....wouldn't that do it too? Doesn't matter ...but like anything I try to understand what is happening and not just follow instructions. At any rate ...the big issue is resolved. Thank you guys ...I hope I can return the favor somehow in the future.
 

markba633csi

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#22
Most guys don't care about the theory, they just want it to work LOL
I can go into more detail if you want. The phase shift of the capacitor and start winding with respect to the run winding is what sets the rotational direction. Swapping the cap leads won't reverse it. Swapping the ends of the start winding will, or swapping the ends of the run windings. Here, we are doing the former. With the 220 volt connection, we only have to switch one side of the start leg between the two power lines, only 3 wires to the motor + ground. Why? I'm saving that for the next lesson;)
Mark
BTW, when we say "start leg" we mean all three parts: the start winding, the start cap, and the centrifugal start switch
 
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Headrc

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#23
Thanks for that explanation as well. I try to get my little brain to understand the basics as much as possible ...so in the future I could maybe figure it out ...or pay it forward. So give me as much info/links to info as you feel like. Your help is greatly appreciated. Richard
 

markba633csi

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#24
Rich: here's the second part of the "lesson"- study the 4 configurations, you will see that A and B give the same result, and C and D give the same opposite result. Notice the small black "dot" on the windings indicating polarity. What we are doing here is taking one upper case and one lower case(A and D for example) to give both directions by moving only one wire. The start leg never sees more than 110 v because of the voltage divider of the two run windings in series. The dotted end of the start leg would be your yellow wire, the other end the red, tied to the strap, junction of run windings.
mark
phasing1za.jpeg
 
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Headrc

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#25
Thanks Mark! That helps expand my little mind and makes total sense to me.
 
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markba633csi

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#26
You're welcome Rich, another mind expanded
all in a day's work for HM guy :cupcake:
 
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