Going crazy(er)

[verbotenwhisky]

Thank you, I didn't realize they were so much smaller . I look ar swing and bed length and think they HAVE to be similar in physical size.

My observation on the small lathes has bee that the physical size is around twice the length of the between centers and about twice the height and width of the swing +/-...

 

[GrifterGuru]

My observation on the small lathes has bee that the physical size is around twice the length of the between centers and about twice the height and width of the swing +/-...

You saying that, the footprint of my 7x16 is as follows:

Length: 31" change-gear cover to end of bed
Width: 12" Rear of motor guard to front of cross-slide handwheel/handle
Height: 12" Bench top to top of e-switch.

Headstock face to end of bedway: 21-1/2"
Spindle face to end of bedway: 20-1/2"

Tailstock quill nose to rear of tailstock foot: 3-1/2"

With all that said, I get 7" swing and 17" using short dead centres.

Mostly though, with a chuck and a live centre, the actual "work envelope" is more realistically 9" beetween chuck and tailstock centre and a max swing of 5" in "stock" form without any cross slide extension mods and swing the toolpost around to use L/H tools.


That, I suppose, actually proves your point quite nicely!

 

[Aaron_W]

Oh really, I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was improved QC they pay for and insist on at the factory end, and their own QC at PM's end, plus some better components fitted that PM specify, like bearings and electronics, for example. I wasn't aware they modified the designs too. Nice.

All of the imports seem to have minor variations based on the vendors wishes. Take the common 7x12 lathe, you will find that while clearly related they are not identical. Motors range from 1/3hp to 3/4hp, there are differences in how the tail stock locks, plastic vs metal hand wheels etc.

Yep, I personally believe the total dismissal of the whole class of mini lathes as 'junk' or 'toys' is not only silly, but also counterproductive and can prevent a fair few people from starting out.

I called my purchase of a mini lathe a 'mistake' in a post above but that's probably overstating the case; it's more like a minor regret.

But another aspect to this is that the simplistic and exaggerated characterisation of the 'uselessness' of the Chinese mini lathe might well also lead people to make bad purchasing decisions.

I could easily see people who might have considered buying something more capable secondhand, comparing the claims of the uselessness of the mini lathe with what they see some youtubers achieving with their mini lathes, and conclude that the 'old iron is better iron' (and to be fair, it often is) message is just elitism and gatekeeping. They then go and buy a mini lathe instead of taking some time time to find an ML7 or an SB9 or the likes.

One day, I'll get round to posting my thoughts on how beginners with little or no machining experience are poorly served for buying advice.

You also have to consider the forums focus.

This forum as a kind of generalist hobby / small working shop forum skews to larger lathes. I'd guess 12x36 is the most common size for members here with those who primarily use lathes under 10" swing being a fairly small minority. As a result there are a lot of members who just have no use for a small lathe, and see the benefits (size, cost) in no way offsetting the limitations. If you have the room for a 700-1000lb lathe it can be hard to understand the needs of somebody who just has part of a desk to work with and just needs to make parts the size of a thimble.

On a modelling forum I belong to, those that own lathes heavily skew heavily towards Sherline, with easily 70-80% owning one, followed by Taig, Unimat and only a small fraction with a 7x import lathe. The kind of work being done there makes a 6" or 7" lathe a big lathe.


I think the biggest failure of the mini-lathes is kind of personal. Because they are cheap, a lot of new people with little experience buy them. Often they find that they should have bought something bigger for their needs, but bought for the price. The issue of poor quality control and sort of being unfinished kits also makes them a poor choice for a novice. These combine to make a lot of people with bad experiences.

I have found that people who intentionally bought a small lathe with full awareness of their shortcomings tend to like them.

 

[GrifterGuru]

people who intentionally bought a small lathe with full awareness of their shortcomings tend to like them.

Some people buy them because of the shortcomings and the need to "Tune" them. It gives them a "project" to work on as well as gives them an opportunity to machine a few parts to hone skills before embarking on other, deeper, projects.

To some a mini lathe is a project, to others it is a means to an end.

Me personally, I bought a "project" lathe that turned into a full rebuild.

I then purchased a second mini lathe, this time a "quality" 7x to make parts for the first one, if Sieg can be called quality with the issues they have.

Counter intuitive? maybe, but I find the whole thing appealing in a wierd sort of way.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

All of the imports seem to have minor variations based on the vendors wishes. Take the common 7x12 lathe, you will find that while clearly related they are not identical. Motors range from 1/3hp to 3/4hp, there are differences in how the tail stock locks, plastic vs metal hand wheels etc.



You also have to consider the forums focus.

This forum as a kind of generalist hobby / small working shop forum skews to larger lathes. I'd guess 12x36 is the most common size for members here with those who primarily use lathes under 10" swing being a fairly small minority. As a result there are a lot of members who just have no use for a small lathe, and see the benefits (size, cost) in no way offsetting the limitations. If you have the room for a 700-1000lb lathe it can be hard to understand the needs of somebody who just has part of a desk to work with and just needs to make parts the size of a thimble.

On a modelling forum I belong to, those that own lathes heavily skew heavily towards Sherline, with easily 70-80% owning one, followed by Taig, Unimat and only a small fraction with a 7x import lathe. The kind of work being done there makes a 6" or 7" lathe a big lathe.


I think the biggest failure of the mini-lathes is kind of personal. Because they are cheap, a lot of new people with little experience buy them. Often they find that they should have bought something bigger for their needs, but bought for the price. The issue of poor quality control and sort of being unfinished kits also makes them a poor choice for a novice. These combine to make a lot of people with bad experiences.

I have found that people who intentionally bought a small lathe with full awareness of their shortcomings tend to like them.

I personally have no issues with the mini's nor the smaller machines. the little 7X16 at HF got me to looking at the machines, up to that point I was a mill guy. the more I looked the more I found myself comparing the smaller offerings of Grizzly, LMS and PM. At that point the 10x30 looked like the right size range then I looked at tooling and asked myself exactly what do I want to do with this machine? At that point I wound up with the PM1236 which has proven to be the correct choice....... "For me".

 

[verbotenwhisky]

Some people buy them because of the shortcomings and the need to "Tune" them. It gives them a "project" to work on as well as gives them an opportunity to machine a few parts to hone skills before embarking on other, deeper, projects.

To some a mini lathe is a project, to others it is a means to an end.

Me personally, I bought a "project" lathe that turned into a full rebuild.

I then purchased a second mini lathe, this time a "quality" 7x to make parts for the first one, if Sieg can be called quality with the issues they have.

Counter intuitive? maybe, but I find the whole thing appealing in a wierd sort of way.

Thats when the lathe "IS" the hobby...

 

[GrifterGuru]

Thats when the lathe "IS" the hobby...

True, but the second lathe is being used to machine parts for another hobby (Classic bicycles).

 

[SouthernChap]

All of the imports seem to have minor variations based on the vendors wishes. Take the common 7x12 lathe, you will find that while clearly related they are not identical. Motors range from 1/3hp to 3/4hp, there are differences in how the tail stock locks, plastic vs metal hand wheels etc.

In that post I was really talking about PM's offerings. I was aware they were a cut above the likes of LMS and Grizzly but I wasn't aware that PM were effectively getting Weiss to manufacturer custom machines for them.

You also have to consider the forums focus.

I wasn't particularly talking about this forum which has one of the healthier attitudes to the machines (whatever we buy) members buy.

 

[SouthernChap]

When you look at the bare bones of them, yes, they appear to be Sieg machines with Warren Machine Co (Warco) specified upgrades.

Hmm...taking a look at the Warco Mini lathes they look more like the CJ18A, which is (was) IIRC manufactured by Real Bull. Which is interesting because I'd have expected Warco to use the Weiss WBL1835 ( https://www.weissmachinery.com/brushless-lathe-series/57443286.html) as the basis for their mini-lathe offering.

To be fair, Warco's WM180 is really a mini-lathe as regards capacity.

 

[GrifterGuru]

Hmm...taking a look at the Warco Mini lathes they look more like the CJ18A, which is (was) IIRC manufactured by Real Bull. Which is interesting because I'd have expected Warco to use the Weiss WBL1835 ( https://www.weissmachinery.com/brushless-lathe-series/57443286.html) as the basis for their mini-lathe offering.

To be fair, Warco's WM180 is really a mini-lathe as regards capacity.

The WM180 (for £1269) works out at being a 7x12 (180mm swing, 300mm between centres)

The "Super Mini" (For £1198) Is a 7x 14 (180 swing, 350mm between centres).

Personally, if it were purely based on usable space I would drop for the Super mini.