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Hafco AL900A lathe, is anyone able to identify what it really is?

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dgrev

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Terry

I will get to the thread chart issue in due course. Need to do some more learning first!

Pierre

I have just got back home from doing some turning and with a 6" long 2 1/4 inch hollow bar which I was boring, the taper is 10 thou in 50mm
which is consistent with the 35 thou taper I saw yesterday on the external side over 150mm!!!!
Makes it effectively impossible (for me) to get any accuracy. A Fitter and Turner could cope with it, but beyond my talents at this time.

So my highest priority is getting this thing to cut to a reasonable parallel.

I don't have a machinist's level, so carpenter's levels will have to do until I can either buy a machinist's level or set up a truing bar and adjust in from that. Went into town and tried to buy some aluminium bar to do so, but largest diameter I could get was 25mm which from the Youtube videos I have watched is way too narrow. However, thinking about it, it would be a starting point and may help until such time as I next get to Adelaide and can buy
some 1 1/2" aluminium bar.

The taper is reducing towards the tailstock, so unless there are other factors at play, it really does point to the tailstock end as being out. As you have said, I may just have to give it some time and see if it will settle if the jacking bolts result in one of them not contacting the floor and the taper still
being there.
Am I correct in that it is the rear RHS bolt that I should be screwing downwards ie. increasing the height of that side?
(Which is what I was doing before and the RHS front bolt was lifting clear of the floor.)
Regards
Doug
 
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tjb

Terry
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Terry

I will get to the thread chart issue in due course. Need to do some more learning first!

Pierre

I have just got back home from doing some turning and with a 6" long 2 1/4 inch hollow bar which I was boring, the taper is 10 thou in 50mm
which is consistent with the 35 thou taper I saw yesterday on the external side over 150mm!!!!
Makes it effectively impossible (for me) to get any accuracy. A Fitter and Turner could cope with it, but beyond my talents at this time.

So my highest priority is getting this thing to cut to a reasonable parallel.

I don't have a machinist's level, so carpenter's levels will have to do until I can either buy a machinist's level or set up a truing bar and adjust in from that. Went into town and tried to buy some aluminium bar to do so, but largest diameter I could get was 25mm which from the Youtube videos I have watched is way too narrow. However, thinking about it, it would be a starting point and may help until such time as I next get to Adelaide and can buy
some 1 1/2" aluminium bar.

The taper is reducing towards the tailstock, so unless there are other factors at play, it really does point to the tailstock end as being out. As you have said, I may just have to give it some time and see if it will settle if the jacking bolts result in one of them not contacting the floor and the taper still
being there.
Am I correct in that it is the rear RHS bolt that I should be screwing downwards ie. increasing the height of that side?
(Which is what I was doing before and the RHS front bolt was lifting clear of the floor.)
Regards
Doug
Doug,

I don't if it's feasible where you live, but I've been able to acquire quite a few pieces of metal - including inch and a half solid rounds - for very reasonable prices on e-bay. I'm sure you'd need to locate an Australian vendor, but here in the US, there are a handful that sell end cuts and other salvageable pieces for very reasonable prices.

Regards,
Terry
 

dgrev

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Terry

I have seen similar on the Oz site. The biggest issue here is parcel cost. Ever since email hit the regular letter service the post office has focused on parcels as their bread and butter. It isn't cheap anymore and it really suppresses what is sold online.
I bought a .50cal ammo box recently - empty. Cost was $19.95, postage was $13.50. I regularly see items that the postage cost if 75% or more of the item price until that price exceeds roughly $50.
Truck freight is only affordable if you are a business and have an account with them that guarantees you will spend $XXXX per month. One off despatches are roughly 3x postage cost outside of the capital cities.

As to buying things out of the USA, US Post has all but killed off international parcels, they killed the thriving 2nd hand book industry stone dead.
The items I have priced in the last couple of years usually have the postage cost exceed the item cost by a factor of 2.
The fact that almost nothing seems to fit in those weird sized "fixed price international boxes"
forces you to use the L x W x D by Weight option which is what drives the postage cost into the ridiculous category.

I just did a search for aluminium bar or rod and got zero hits from Aussie sellers, and just this one from England
<https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6082-Aluminium-Round-Bar-Offcuts-1-5-8-dia-41-3mm-x-112mm-94mm-Rod-Lathe-CNC/232439364192?hash=item361e773a60:m:mHzM1Aj21DL1ND3PkMZxkEw>
1 off 41.3mm x 108mm bar for or a total of $38.56!

So will finish lunch and then go to the metal place and get that 25mm rod and have a play this arvo.

Since you were asking about Oz. Some photos for you.
- First is an open road shot. We are on the trans-Oz highway, so it is not unusual to have to dodge large items of machinery. Think of all the good steel for our projects going by to disappear into mines and never come out.
- A dust storm rolling in, usually happen in drought years. Which is why I am going to have to get a good cover for the lathe as I don't fancy having to take it apart to clean the very fine dust out of everything.
- 2 legged road hazards a block from my place. I have never seen Emus wandering the streets before, the tourists who think we are the wild west may just be correct. We are in drought and they are coming into town for food. Which tends to suggest that it will be dust storms starting probably in September, so I had better have a really good cover for that lathe (Bob misses out on all this).
Any suggestions, I was wondering if they make BBQ covers that big?

20150530_134058a.jpg
01022010242a.jpg
20180516_150925a.jpg


The photos of the accessories that came with the lathe are on either page 1 or 2 of this thread.

Regards
Doug
 
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dgrev

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Everyone

Went and got that aluminium bar and set it up against the live centre as I could not get it to sit true in the chuck no matter how much I reset it.
Which seemed odd.

Best I could align lathe was 12 thou out over the 11" of the lathe. So call it 1 thou per inch.

When it came time to back off the tailstock, the bar sprang still. No matter how many times I reset it in the chuck, still the identical spring. See photos.
20180621_143726a.jpg
20180621_143743a.jpg



So I then eased off the chuck, rotated the bar 180 deg, and tightened everything back up.
Then again backed off the tail stock.
20180621_143843a.jpg
20180621_143915a.jpg



Same result. So this time I turned the chuck 180 deg and then eased the tail stock. Double
the deflection.

20180621_144050a.jpg
20180621_144101a.jpg


Please don't tell me the headstock is out of alignment?

Screw on chuck by the way. I have not noticed any run out on the chuck, but I haven't had it slower than 650 rpm, so that may hide any wobble?

I take it next step is put the dial indicator against the chuck?

Regards
Doug
 
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Downunder Bob

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Doug before you get too excited, have you checked for parallel on a shorter bar say six inches without the tailstock. just set up the bar in the chuck with about 6 inches sticking out, take a light cut and measure, should be near perfect parallel. That test confirms your headstock is square to the lathe bed, If it isn't you have to fix that first..

While your there put a centre hole into end of bar. then extend bar out as far as practicable say a foot to 18 inches. and bring tailstock up to bar and see how it looks. Looking down from the top you should see that amount of misalignment. Now look at the tail stock, you'll see it's made in two parts, with a rectangular slide going across. There should also be 2 maybe 4 grub screws in top part closed own to the joint. Should be one at the front and one at they back plus maybe two on the right hand end. The front and back ones are for adjustment. the two on the end, if they exist, are for locking.

Loosen the hold down locking lever or bolt whichever you have, then loosen the two locking screws, now carefully adjust the front and back screws, until the tilstock looks to be lined up. Then set your dial indicator up and measure for parallel from chuck to tailstock. with the clock near to the tailstock end of bar slowly engage center into hole and see which way it move adjust tailstock until you get teh clock to show parallel from chuck to tail stock , then tighten the locking screws,and hold down clamp check again you may need to make further adjustment. depends how accurate you want it.
 

dgrev

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Bob

Yes I have, the 2 3/8" hollow bar I bored yesterday. When I turned it down, it lost 30 thou from chuck to end of piece over 150mm. So today's observations are agreeing with that, in that there is a taper happening irrespective of the tailstock.

Is it a chicken and egg thing? Which do I do first, twist or headstock?

Regards
Doug
 

tjb

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Doug,

I will be out of commission almost all day but will follow the posts. Bob's suggestions should help you zero in on the necessary adjustments.

Will try to post a photo or two of the tail stock on the Kin Shin. Can't promise it will be today, though.

Thanks for the pix. It's a different world out there!

Regards,
Terry

6:50 AM. Sunny. A little cooler today than yesterday.
 

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Ok, I thought you had said something like that. So to start with you have to address that, to start with ignore the tail stock. what you have is a misalignment from the headstock spindle to the bed. They should be parallel in both the vertical and horizontal planes. and I mean parallel.

The specs for my lathe say max. .02mm out of parallel. That's pretty tight.

Have a look at your lathe where the headstock is attached to the bed, there should be 4? large bolts holding it together, also there maybe some adjusting screws If you slacken those screws you should be able to pivot the headstock around a central pin.

Before you loosen anything put your test bar in the chuck and take a light cut and measure at both ends, then when you try to adjust it with your dial indicator on the distant end try to adjust out the error. now take another light cut and measure

It may take a few goes to get it right. A long bar set into the outer end of the head spindle might help to nudge the headstock around. Once you have the headstock square you can start on the tailstock. One can only wonder how it got to be that far out?
 

dgrev

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Bob.

Indeed, it does make you wonder just what has gone on in this lathe's past. Somebody fiddling where they shouldn't have been I suspect.

Do you think I should buy a machinist's level before going any further?

I have seen 4 cap screws (allen) and noticed one snubber cap screw next to the motor, so there should be one tucked under the belt cover on the far LHS rear of the headstock. So looking good as far as adjusting the head stock. I am very wary of playing in this area, seems to me it is a bit of a Pandaora's Box that I am hesitant to open. But, you say I need to start there, so that is where I will start.

Regards
Doug
 

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Doug, do you know what sort of work the previous owner did on the lathe. He may have had a reason for wanting a long slow atper.

I think you said you had squared it up with a carpenters level, that should be good enough to start with. It is better than nothing. I would still follow it up with a good machine level. It's a bit like oils. Sure there is correct oil for every application, but surely the wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

So having squared it up as best you can and it's still turning with same taper, then squaring it more won't make it any better. And you probably don't need to go to a surveyor's or toolmakers level, 1 mm per meter should be good enough, some modern builders levels can get that at least until they are dropped.

Then the next step is to get the headstock square with the bed. once you've got that done, you can proceed with the rest of it.

If you wish we can talk by phone if it helps, give me your number I can call anywhere in Aus free.24/7
 

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When I was an apprentice I was given the job of restoring an old lathe, and one thing we did, was when we got the tailstock squared in we put two tapered locating pins into it. So if you wanted to move it you had to remove the pins, and when you wanted it back square you lined up the pin holes, knocked the pins in and it was spot on.
 

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Bob

Thanks for the offer. All understood. I will PM my phone number to you. Don't want it on public display as I just received a spam email from a Chinese Carbide insert maker. They could have got my details anywhere, but I have been here the most.

My builder's level has reset-able vials. I detest those ones that can't be adjusted after they have been knocked or dropped.

Somewhere, in a safe place but currently unknown I have a Gunner's Quadrant. Don't know the accuracy of it, but gunners talk in mils, so assume it is pretty good. If I could only find it.......

Regards
Doug
 

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A gunner's quadrant, I've probably seen one, as I was in the Artillery for a couple of years, but i don't remember it. I was probably not on the need to know list, as I was just the grunt, actually the gun tractor driver, to the real artillery guys the drivers were the lowest of the low, not really gunners at all. Once the guns were delivered to a site and set up the drivers were just there to fetch and carry.

With your resettable level that's ok as long as you know how to do it properly and how to check it. I'll keep you number secret if you want to let me have it it's up to you
 

dgrev

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Bob.
Gunner's Quadrant is placed on the breech of the gun. Typically for a gun not normally used for indirect fire (artillery is normally indirect fire) such as tank gun firing at something it cannot see. Your normal artillery unit comes with all the fancy instruments already on the gun or with the gun command.

Not worried about keeping my number secret as such, I just don't want to be answering the phone to half of India or China trying to sell me stuff I don't want.

Am thinking of having a chat tomorrow evening?

Regards
Doug
 

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Tomorrow evening should be fine, say after 8.00 i assume you are on sa time,

Yeh the guns we had were pretty good considering they were made during WWII 25 pounders known as 9 mile snipers. Yes they certainly were indirect fire. we would set up a target we could see because we certainly could not see the real target. The gun surveyors would lay out all sorts of triangles and used lots of trigonometry to calculate where the target was in relation to were we were. Most of the time it worked and we hit the target.
 

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Decided today to pull the chuck off and make sure there was nothing between the rear face and the spindle front face. As a base line I set up the dial indicator and turned the chuck by hand. Runout is 12 thou, that seems way too much to me?
Then locked the headstock gears and removed the chuck.
There was some dents and burrs on the rear of the chuck so I cleaned those off with an oil stone. The spindle face looked nice as did its thread.

However, the same could not be said for the thread inside the chuck. A bit scary actually. There were burs impacted into the thread the whole way down along with some bad damage (missing material) in the middle of the thread run.

I am guessing this is what happens when someone changes the chuck and does not clean out swathe first.

See photos.
20180622_104334a.jpg
20180622_134643a.jpg


Then remounted the chuck and retested with the dial indicator. Runout was identical at 12 thou.
I then put the alloy bar back in and decided (without much optimism) to try and turn the far end and measure the difference to the chuck end to establish how far skewed the headstock is. As predicted, the alloy bar is too thin and it chattered badly. Sigh.

I will have to come up with a way to sight the headstock to the bed. I am tending to think I will use the 11" alloy bar and align to the centre bore of
it with the live centre in the tailstock. This should get me pretty close, then using a fresh bar, repeat the process and fine tune.
Another option would be to put a small drill through say a 3" long bar in the chuck and then bore sight to the live centre in the tailstock.
 

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Did you indicate the spindle face and the M5 taper on the inside of the spindle? See yellow lines pointing to where to check.
C5DEDDFB-5ACF-4626-92DA-60E84EFF40B7.jpeg


I would be hopeful and look at the chuck as the source of the problem. Some missing material in the threads is not that much of an issue as the chuck will register on the front face of the spindle. Remove the back plate from the chuck after checking the spindle and install it. Now check again the mounting surface for the chuck. Maybe the backing plate needs to be refaced for example.
 

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Did you indicate the spindle face and the M5 taper on the inside of the spindle? See yellow lines pointing to where to check.
View attachment 270248


I would be hopeful and look at the chuck as the source of the problem. Some missing material in the threads is not that much of an issue as the chuck will register on the front face of the spindle. Remove the back plate from the chuck after checking the spindle and install it. Now check again the mounting surface for the chuck. Maybe the backing plate needs to be refaced for example.
Yes definitely indicate the spindle face and the taper bore. I hope they are OK because if not it would suggest a bent spindle. And that is not a good result.
 

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Pierre

Thanks for the info.

No I have not indicated the spindle face or bore, so will do so.

I had a talk to Bob last night and he agrees with you that I should take the back plate from the chuck, install the back plate and measure the run out of the back plate then go from there.

Regards
Doug
 

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Hello all. I have made some progress over the weekend along with other jobs.

I made up a "peep sight" to align the head with the tailstock live centre point. I used a piece of 23mm idiameter alloy roughly 3" long cut off the 11" bar from earlier on. Bored it out with a 1/8" drill bit. I knew that I had a piece of alloy that was an offcut from one of my Dad's jobs 3 decades ago, so went and fished that out. Other than the hole being a bit big, it was a lovely fit as was into the spindle. You have to win some!
So inserted some alloy sheet metal and drilled it to 1/8".
Sighting through the plug, then through the the bar, allowed me to aim the headstock at the centre point. The peep sight concept meant I could move to and thro and forward and back until the various circles touched each other and gave the desired accuracy. I did need to black the centre and then highlight the last 5mm of the point with white paint. I also need to black the plug, but even then reflections made a nuisance of themselves so hung a cardboard box over it as a hood.
See photos.
20180623_140431a.jpg

20180623_120700a.jpg


The headstock was aligned as best I could, then verified by my wife and a friend who dropped by.

The other job today was to pull the 4 jaw and 3 jaw chucks apart and clean them out. Multiple
reasons, one is Bob insisting I do it, the other because the 3 jaw had a noticable tight spot
about mid jaw movement. But mainly it was so I could clean out what I suspected was a swathe
reservoir between the mounting plate and the chuck proper.

- 4 jaw - removed cap screws, but cannot separate it. Any suggestions? Don't want to force
anything into the gap as don't want to risk burring mating faces.

- 3 jaw - came apart very nicely. See photo for what awaited me. After cleaning everything up,
I greased it with graphited grease and reassembled. Now that the swathe reservoir is empty,
there was no issue with screwing it back onto the spindle. This proved itself when I did a test
cut on the bar and the runout of the work is 1 thou.
The runout of the back plate and chuck are both 4 thou, the same as before disassembly and
cleaning, looks like nothing can be done about that.
20180624_151559a.jpg

Now to the swathe reservoir - what a dumb design! My first thought is to put a bead of silastic in there. Does mean that it must be cleaned off next
time chuck is pulled down and will make doing so difficult, but it will stop the swathe collecting in there and then constantly finding its way into the chuck inards: but mostly stop it finding its way onto the spindle thread every time I screw the chuck back on. I did consider an O ring, but the natural curve of the ring will still allow fine swathe to build in that area.
Does anyone have any other suggestions what I could use that will compress easily and block that area off?

Regards
Doug
 

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dgrev

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Pierre

Further cleaning and work today.

I pulled the back plate off the 3 jaw chuck and installed an O ring to seal the swathe reservoir. Failed to notice the alignment mark on the back plate so had to do the process a 2nd time when the chuck runout was 7 thou.

I now have the backplate and 3 jaw chuck both at 1 thou runout. Very happy with that.
So no need to machine the backing plate.
Thanks for the link.

Running a 19mm alloy bar between 3 jaw chuck and live centre in tail stock I am getting 30 thou taper over 200mm. Adjusting the leveling legs
seems to be an exercise in futility.............

Regards
Doug
 

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Pierre

Further cleaning and work today.

I pulled the back plate off the 3 jaw chuck and installed an O ring to seal the swathe reservoir. Failed to notice the alignment mark on the back plate so had to do the process a 2nd time when the chuck runout was 7 thou.

I now have the backplate and 3 jaw chuck both at 1 thou runout. Very happy with that.
So no need to machine the backing plate.
Thanks for the link.

Running a 19mm alloy bar between 3 jaw chuck and live centre in tail stock I am getting 30 thou taper over 200mm. Adjusting the leveling legs
seems to be an exercise in futility.............

Regards
Doug
Doug some progress, but still problems, welcome to the world of hobby machinist with a preloved machine. I take it you have squared your headstock and that is turning without taper.

The next step is to adjust the tailstock. You should find an adjustment where you can slide the top part of the tailstock across sideways. Can you post a couple of pics of your tailstock good close ups from front and RH end. so we can see how it's put together leave your levelling screws where you feel they are near correct for now.

Slide the tail stock up to the headstock with a center in each. you will see they are not lined up, so we have to adjust that. Let me know if you want me to call.
 

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Bob

I have the tailstock and headstock aligned (well, I think I have), but this taper thing is getting really vexing.

It is apparent that fiddling with the leveling feet is not working. so am assuming I need to go back to basics. Your point about centre to centre is
worth trying, however, I have no way of putting a centre in the headstock that I am aware of. Besides that, the spindle hole is 1 1/2" I.d. which would be a pretty huge Morse taper?

All that I can think of is to cut a point on a piece of short bar in the 3 jaw chuck?

Regards
Doug
 

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Bob

I have the tailstock and headstock aligned (well, I think I have), but this taper thing is getting really vexing.

It is apparent that fiddling with the leveling feet is not working. so am assuming I need to go back to basics. Your point about centre to centre is
worth trying, however, I have no way of putting a centre in the headstock that I am aware of. Besides that, the spindle hole is 1 1/2" I.d. which would be a pretty huge Morse taper?

All that I can think of is to cut a point on a piece of short bar in the 3 jaw chuck?

Regards
Doug
Exactly put a piece of scrap in the chuck ,machine a center point on it and slide the tailstock up to it I bet they don't line up. BTW the headstock should be a #4 or 5 MT.
 

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Exactly put a piece of scrap in the chuck ,machine a center point on it and slide the tailstock up to it I bet they don't line up. BTW the headstock should be a #4 or 5 MT.
If adjusting the leveling feet isn't fixing it then obviously it's something else. My bet is the tailstock. the previous owner may have set it over for special job and never put it back.
 

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Bob, will do, hopefully tomorrow.

The tailstock is adjusted exactly even. I will be surprised if it is the problem, but as I am out of clues, I will investigate that.

Doug
 

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Bob, will do, hopefully tomorrow.

The tailstock is adjusted exactly even. I will be surprised if it is the problem, but as I am out of clues, I will investigate that.

Doug
Doug, if as you say, the tailstock is adjusted exactly even, what was it aligned too, how do you know it's correct. the problem you have is exactly what happens when it's not adjusted correctly. the standard method of turning a taper is to adjust the tailstock over. The little mark on the end is usually as useful as t*ts on a bull. I've never seen one that was correct.
 

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Bob. I have adjusted the headstock with my peep sight arrangement post #141 from how it came, so am concerned that if I now fiddle with something else (tailstock), I will have altered a 3rd setting that was possibly factory. Given that the leveling is a an exercise in failure I need to try something else. But this will introduce yet another unknown.
1) Leveling
2) Headstock
3) Tailstock

If the tailstock adjustment fails then I will have a lathe with no possible factory reference parameters left.

Then what do I do?

Regards
Doug
 
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