Help getting the first milling essentials

[Jim F]

I think you made a good choice. These screwless vises are more rigid and ground more accurately than milling vises. I have used them for decades and find them to be a little slower to use but not much. An advantage is that you can place the vise so it does not interfere with Y-axis travel. Just make some hold down clamps your first project.

You will find that the taller jaws is also good. Most 6" parallel sets cannot use the taller ones because the jaws of most machine vises are not that tall. Yours will be very useful.

Next priority will be a good collet holding system. MT collets are pretty good but if I were you, I would look at an ER chuck. Glacern, ETM/Iscar, Rego-Fix and Techniks make good ones. Buy a good chuck; resist Asian imports. Buy good collets - Techniks is good. Buy good ER nuts - ETM, Rego-Fix, Techniks. Ball bearing nuts have greatly improved and may be a better option but if you opt for a solid nut, get one with a hard coating from the same quality makers.

These two things, a good vise and an accurate tool holding system, are the key foundational stuff you must have for a milling machine. You can compromise on other stuff but not these two.

My question is, how much Z real estate does the ER collet take up ?
With small mills like ours we need all the space we can get.

 

[Lo-Fi]

Availability of brands accessible to US shoppers can be an issue here in the UK...

My (UK) 2p on suppliers:

Be very careful with eBay when shopping for decent (new) tooling stuff, with the exception of Gloster tools or Rennie. RDG pop up lots, and their range is great, but they've always seemed very variable from my experience. I've have some ok stuff and some utter garbage from RDG. Nothing really good IMHO, especially for the prices.

I've never been disappointed with stuff I've bought from Rennie, Gloster, Arc or APT so far. Zoro also sell decent kit.

I reckon you've made a good choice of vice for that mill.

 

[mikey]

My question is, how much Z real estate does the ER collet take up ?
With small mills like ours we need all the space we can get.

That's a very good point, Jim. An ER chuck definitely takes up more room in Z than a MT or an R8 collet does so I suppose you have to weigh that factor. I have an RF-31 with 16-7/8" max space from the spindle nose to the table; my Kurt vise takes up 3-1/4" of that, leaving me with a max of about a foot or so, give or take. I have an ETM ER40 chuck with an integral R8 shank that sticks out maybe about 2-3" from the spindle nose; this is the largest ER chuck I own. My other ER chucks project less.

Over the last 5-6 years that I've used this mill, I have not had a single instance where an ER chuck was the reason for not being able to do the work I do. I always try to use the shortest end mill that will do the job but even so, clearance has never been an issue for me.

I also use a Beall ER32 chuck on my Sherline mill. That mill has an extended column and the column is on a riser so I have about 14" of clearance from the nose of the spindle to the table. My Beall chuck is about 3" long and my Wilton machine vise takes up an additional 3" in height. Even here, I have had zero issues running out of room when using an end mill.

It may be that I have not had to do really tall/big projects but, for me, an ER chuck has not been a hindrance, ever. I much prefer the accuracy an ER chuck brings vs native taper collets like an R8, and there is no question that an ER chuck dampens vibration better than a native taper collet. Bottom line is that improved accuracy (and tool life), reduced vibration and the lack of any real world vertical clearance issues tends to make me favor an ER chuck.

Your situation may definitely vary, though.

 

[Jim F]

This is what I have to work with.
Sorry about the focus.

 

[mikey]

This is what I have to work with.
Sorry about the focus.

If I had that mill, I would use a Tormach TTS ER32 collet chuck in it. The chuck only projects a few inches from the spindle and is more than accurate enough for hobby use. With good collets, it will hold close to your spindle's run out.

 

[graham-xrf]

OK - I now will be getting into all there is about collets, collet holders, Z-axis space.

There is another thing starting to look more obvious. It's about a Digital Read-Out.

Dealing with natural backlash on a lathe is instinctive. I think you actually need a little (backlash) there to really know where you are. When you back up, and then move forward to take it up, the next amount can be read off the graduated dial just fine. This is not so easy with a mill, where the table moves into a machining operation in both directions, and both directions crossways.

Of course, one can keep juggling the dial readings after backlash, but the process starts to become cumbersome, and it feels to me to be error-prone.

So who thinks a DRO, as used for a mill, is not really optional?

 

[Lo-Fi]

I'll be getting a DRO at some point, but have done plenty of accurate work with hand dials. Can be annoying, but a century of machinists have got by just fine with dials and indicators.

 

[graham-xrf]

Collets Chuck & Drawbar Question
I press on with the acquisition of "essentials". I now have a set of hard "adjustable stairs" and various clampdowns with T-nuts and studs. I also have a pair of 123-blocks. I know quite a lot of first milling will be in the vise, but based on the pictures I see in HM posts, it seems that these really are essential to the kit. I have yet to get to parallels.

We come to collets, and collet chucks. I am still exploring everything about them. Before even I get into what are "quality" sets, I run up onto a basic question about sets and drawbars. The mill I have purchased , still in it's crate, has a M10 drawbar, and is supplied with a MT3 arbor to mount the drill chuck. To provide the mill with a MT3 collet chuck, and some ER32 collets, one has to look for ..

1. The chuck must be MT3 to mount in the mill.
2. The front of the chuck must accept ER32 collets.
3. The rear of the chuck must have a M10 thread, so the supplied drawbar in the mill can pull on it.

It is the last of these that leads me to the question. As I look through the various offerings, the more usual ER32 sets have a M12 drawbar. There are some with 7/16" back thread, which is about 11.11mm.

Q1. So long as there is enough clearance down the quill tube, can one simply use a thicker drawbar?
Are there dangers?
Does one usually end up making up a drawbar, or bars, having the correct threads on the ends, to suit the sets one can buy?

Q2. Is it commonly done to use the same collets in mill and lathe, with only the drawbar length being different?

Q3 Related to Q2, I think this only works if one is willing to give up the ability to have longer work fit right through the collet chuck when on a lathe.
Is it commonly done to have two collet chucks, one for lathe, the other for mill, and one set of collets?
I see a totally different style of MT3 collet chuck, intended for lathe, that uses a tube-style drawbar, which does allow turned work to fit up the middle.

This is stuff I just don't know, and getting it wrong risks being expensive!

 

[mikey]

1. It is common to make a new drawbar at need. The easiest way is to use a round bar to fit the hole in the spindle (thicker than stock is fine) and cut the threads you need to fit the chuck; then cut it to length. At the top, duplicate the washer or flange or whatever the stock drawbar has, then use hex stock to make the nut on top. Pin/silver solder the hex to the drawbar and you're done.
2/3. It is not wise to use the collets you use to hold end mills on the mill to hold work on the lathe. Collets hold best when they are sized very close to the tool they must hold. While an ER collet can collapse to hold smaller diameters, doing so eventually affects their accuracy. So, use a 10mm collet to hold a 10mm shank. Try not to use an 11mm collet to hold a 10mm tool, even if the larger collet will collapse down to hold it.

I highly recommend you buy high quality collets for tool holding on the mill, and buy a cheap import set for use in the collet chuck on the lathe for work holding. Work holding on the lathe does not require tenths accuracy and it is fine to collapse a collet to grab work that is a bit off size. While you will eventually wear collets by doing this, their low cost is more acceptable.

 

[graham-xrf]

I highly recommend you buy high quality collets for tool holding on the mill, and buy a cheap import set for use in the collet chuck on the lathe for work holding. Work holding on the lathe does not require tenths accuracy and it is fine to collapse a collet to grab work that is a bit off size. While you will eventually wear collets by doing this, their low cost is more acceptable.

Thank you for that. It suddenly opens up many more sets that can be used.
I am looking to ER32, especially for lathe, because they easily clamp with a compression nut from the front, so much easier to clamp and let go. Also, by recommendation from @DavidR8 , who has already purchased and tried out an MT3 set.

I will take out the mill drawbar, get a look down the hole, and figure out exactly what this machine needs.

As for the South Bend 9(s), it seems easy enough to get up a drawbar for the type of collet chuck that uses a solid rod. I have yet to find the type of collet chuck that uses a tube.