Help getting the first milling essentials

[graham-xrf]

My vise ad'vice' is to get the best one can afford because it is the foundation of your work. While you may not be hogging off gobs of metal in a single pass, any inaccuracies will translate to the work.
Out of square jaws, jaws that lift when tightened all contribute to inaccurate work. And while I don't think you are sub-contracting for British Airways to make jet engine parts, parts that are out of square are just annoying.
I could not stomach the price of a 4" Kurt or Orange vise so I opted for a Glacern 4". It's as accurate as I can measure with my tenths indicator and finished very well.
I would not get anything that swivels or tilts.
The tool makers style vises such as what Stefan Gotteswinter uses seems to be a smart choice for a small mill.

Thanks David.
While I am not sure that it has a flat side that can allow it to be turned on it's side like in @macardoso 's picture, I provide the link to their site.
The standard vise is $349. Then there is a range of other options.

--> Glacern 4" Vise



The following are optional extras..
4-Inch Chomper Hard Jaws $149.99
4-Inch Hardened Vee Jaw $99.00
4-Inch Serrated Hard Jaws $139.99
4-inch Original Hard Jaws (Pair) $59.99 (I guess if you happen to accidently "mill" part of the vise.)
Soft Jaws - 4 Inch Aluminum $55.00
Extra Wide 6 AL Soft Jaws for 4" $99.00
Crank Handle for 4-inch Vise $29.00

These take the additionals to an art form. A "work stop" is $99.99.
This begs the questions. .
Why hardened jaws anyway?
Why soft jaws?
Why serrated jaws?
How hard are standard jaws? (Discovered the bed and jaw places are HRC 50)

I know this seems like I dig hard, but with almost every new thing I see, and every great reply I get, the mind finds a new question.
The thing that decided me on the vise style is that there is advantage in the design of the last of the set I posted. The same flat side type is seen in the crushingly expensive Orange Vise Co products) Clean sides that allow turning on it's side like in @macardoso 's picture.

I digress, but that too shows stuff to get the beginner curious. A slab of aluminium under with enough threaded holes to have wore out one's lifetime supply of that size tap!

 

[Flyinfool]

You want smooth hard jaws for most situations. The hard with the Vee is ok, makes it easier to hold round stuff.
Serrated jaws will leave marks on your work piece.
Soft jaws are easy to machine for holding special shapes.

DO NOT accidentally mill your vice jaws.....

 

[mikey]

Graham, your table is 180 x 700mm or about 7 X 28. I think the largest vise that will fit would be a 4" vise; larger than that and it will interfere with Y-axis travel or hang a long way off in front.

Whichever vise you buy, buy a decent one. As DavidR8 said, the vise is the foundation of your milling machine and it will hold about 90% of all the work you do on the mill. If you have to fight to get the part square in a cheap vise you will regret it every single time you have to clamp something in it.

There are only two general types of milling vises, although there are tons of variants of each. One is the machine vise like Kurt, Glacern, Orange, Wilton and others. The other is a screwless vise, often called a tool maker's vise. The difference between the two is speed and accuracy. Machine vises are very fast to use and good vises have an anglelok feature that pulls the work down so it doesn't rise up as pressure is applied. Screwless vises also pull the work down but you have to move the dynamic jaw into position before you can tighten the jaws so they are slightly slower in use.

Screwless vises are almost uniformly more accurate and more rigid than a milling vise. They are ground on every surface and even the import vises boast squareness within 0.0002" all over. I own three of these: a Wilton precision 2" and 3" vise and a Chinese 3" one that I bought decades ago. All surfaces on all 3 of these vises measure under 0.0002" relative to each other so they are damned accurate. All are more accurate than my 4" Kurt vise and while they are slower in use, we are talking about seconds, not minutes.

If you must cut corners, do not do it with your vise. If I had to economize somehow, I would opt for a good screwless vise. Vertex from Taiwan makes decent ones. Groz from India makes these for Wilton nowadays and my 3" Wilton is made by them. Don't overlook these vises; they are a very good option. You should be able to find a decent 4" vise on your side of the pond.

If you must go with a milling vise, spend the money and get a Kurt or Glacern vise; they are worth the cost. Buy once, cry once.

 

[graham-xrf]

Thanks @mikey , @Flyinfool , @DavidR8 , @macardoso and others.

Let us stress this a bit!
FIRST MILL OWNER NEWBIES TAKE NOTE!
DO NOT SKIMP ON THE VISE!

I had my suspicions that the vise was critically important - at least as much as the spindle, and the ways under it.
We are provided with respected brand names mentioned..
Glacern
Kurt
Wilton (made by Groz)
Groz (from India)
Vertex

Of course, this makes me (mill vise beginner) research out exactly what the terms mean, and whether or not some vise I am contemplating has the desired feature, such as anglelok (is that a trademark term for one brand)? I have figured out "screwless". Kind of obvious, because it's in the name, but Google images makes it all clear.

The mill arrives tomorrow. The mill set up weighs 115kg (253lb), but apparently, in the crate, comes to somewhat more than that. The crate is 1.7m. I suppose it would be OK on the sack truck, but the offload is from a rear motorized platform. I have invoked my heavy load trolly platform with the swivel wheels. The work-out will be the haul to get it from the road down there up to Chez Graham. The new toy! No place at all to put it. Shop not built yet. I know already what will happen if I try and uncrate it in the living room! Whaaaah!

 

[mikey]

I forgot to mention that if you ever decide to get a screwless vise, try to get one with clamping ledges on the sides. With the ledge-type, you just need simple clamps to hold the vise to the table. With the more common vise with holes on the side, you need clamps with pins to hold it to the table. LMS has some that are simple to make.

Ledge-type:



Hole-type:

 

[Jim F]

Thanks @mikey , @Flyinfool , @DavidR8 , @macardoso and others.

Let us stress this a bit!
FIRST MILL OWNER NEWBIES TAKE NOTE!
DO NOT SKIMP ON THE VISE!

I had my suspicions that the vise was critically important - at least as much as the spindle, and the ways under it.
We are provided with respected brand names mentioned..
Glacern
Kurt
Wilton (made by Groz)
Groz (from India)
Vertex

Of course, this makes me (mill vise beginner) research out exactly what the terms mean, and whether or not some vise I am contemplating has the desired feature, such as anglelok (is that a trademark term for one brand)? I have figured out "screwless". Kind of obvious, because it's in the name, but Google images makes it all clear.

The mill arrives tomorrow. The mill set up weighs 115kg (253lb), but apparently, in the crate, comes to somewhat more than that. The crate is 1.7m. I suppose it would be OK on the sack truck, but the offload is from a rear motorized platform. I have invoked my heavy load trolly platform with the swivel wheels. The work-out will be the haul to get it from the road down there up to Chez Graham. The new toy! No place at all to put it. Shop not built yet. I know already what will happen if I try and uncrate it in the living room! Whaaaah!

This is key !!!!!!!!
I have a not appropriate vise, and I cannot make good parts, unless the are small.

 

[Jim F]

For an edge finder, look at a wiggler set, multi-tasker.

How to Use a Wiggler

How to use a wiggler; a type of edge and center finder. Learn what all the attachments are for.

littlemachineshop.com

 

[graham-xrf]

This is key !!!!!!!!
I have a not appropriate vise, and I cannot make good parts, unless the are small.

Thanks Jim. I can tell you are maybe a bit louder than me!

What can I say .. IT'S HERE !!
The truck driver did help, with his hydraulic trolley. He pulled. I pushed.
"Gawd - what you got in there? A couple of bodies?? "!
I managed to make a bit of room in the garage. Farmer neighbor helped me push it in.

Darn, you all know what I want to do now, but it has to stay put for a while. I only did this to beat the inevitable tarrif on 1 January. Until then, goods can travel either way with no duty. We all would like it all to stay that way, but our most not-so-illustrious have arranged things otherwise with all the skill that @Lo-Fi found an appropriate expression for. (Something related to organizing a successful event at a brewery).

As for what's in the crate, YUM YUMMY !!
It will be given the VISE it deserves!

 

[graham-xrf]

And the winner was ...
.. the 100mm (4") version of THIS ⇩



The factors in consideration
It was not nearly the most expensive, given the stratospheric costs of some. I paid £132.42 in now devalued UK online plastics.
Of course, this was a bad day for the ££ pound ££, so now at 1.322/£, it wants $175.00 in USA money.

It was the screwless type. The comment was they are slower to use, but more accurate. I went for accurate!
While screw-lock types are OK, I have no idea how one would set up work with one of those screw-lock types featuring half the screw RH, and the other half LH, called "self centering".

The specification:
This one is manufactured in Germany.
Industrial quality fully hardened to HRC58-62, and ground.

Parallelism 0.005mm/100mm. That translates as 10.3 arc-seconds, or about the same as a theodolite pentaprism.
In inches, it comes to 0.000197" over 3.937" or about 50 millionths per inch.

Squareness is claimed 0.005mm, which again is 0.000197", or about 2 tenths of thousandths.

Jaw width 100mm, Jaw height 45mm (1.77"), Maximum jaw opening 125mm (4.92")

Why this one?
Mostly influenced by @mikey and @macardoso , I went for the 4 inch wide size to suit the size of the mill
Another thing I thought was a good point was the 45mm (1.77") jaw height. Some were 30mm, and some even shallower. I hope I did not make a mistake there, but I thought that if there were parallels under the work, it still left a good amount of jaw height remaining. Arguably, a very shallow jaw height vise is "stiffer". I hoped for the "ledge" type, but the only one I found in the OK range was 6" wide and over 400mm long, so I went for the holes type with pin clamps.

The one I decided against
I was very much tempted by another, import from India, asking £128.99 ($169.23)
The 4" version of this one ⇩ (Sorry - the only picture available was of the 2")



Similar price, but this one has the V-slots in the jaw centres to more easily clamp to round things, which was the attraction.
I decided that if I wanted to clamp something round, I would use V-Blocks, or something custom.
In most ways. they seemed very similar in sizes etc. I was just unsure about the V-slots in there where I would want the edges of parallels stood.
If I judged wrong there, then I passed up a better deal. I also saw a disclaimer about customs processing and additional charges for India, which would not apply to Germany.

For getting together the essentials for a first mill, there is more to come. I am always seeking the best value I can, while not compromising the machine's potential. So far, it can hardly be called a "budget" mill, but nor is it anything madly extravagant. If I seek to buy something that is a real bad idea, I am sure you folk will let me know.

 

[mikey]

I think you made a good choice. These screwless vises are more rigid and ground more accurately than milling vises. I have used them for decades and find them to be a little slower to use but not much. An advantage is that you can place the vise so it does not interfere with Y-axis travel. Just make some hold down clamps your first project.

You will find that the taller jaws is also good. Most 6" parallel sets cannot use the taller ones because the jaws of most machine vises are not that tall. Yours will be very useful.

Next priority will be a good collet holding system. MT collets are pretty good but if I were you, I would look at an ER chuck. Glacern, ETM/Iscar, Rego-Fix and Techniks make good ones. Buy a good chuck; resist Asian imports. Buy good collets - Techniks is good. Buy good ER nuts - ETM, Rego-Fix, Techniks. Ball bearing nuts have greatly improved and may be a better option but if you opt for a solid nut, get one with a hard coating from the same quality makers.

These two things, a good vise and an accurate tool holding system, are the key foundational stuff you must have for a milling machine. You can compromise on other stuff but not these two.