Is an old domestic lathe worth the same as a new import lathe?

[projectnut]

Really like the thoughtful responses in this post. What really amazes me is the quality and features found on the larger (11"+) Asian lathes, especially for the price. Trying to find an old lathe at any price with a D1 camlock spindle, +/- 0.0001" spindle runout, hardened and ground everything, no bed wear and all basic tooling is going to be nearly impossible.



To answer this, I would suggest you buy a new Taiwanesium lathe from PM. Dollar for dollar and bang for the buck, they are a good choice.

Again the availability and quality of the machines varies tremendously by location. I was able to find a Sheldon 13" machine in the Chicago area that had been totally rebuilt including having the ways ground. I paid about half what it would have cost to get a similar quality Asian machine. As for tooling the one I purchased came with 3 chucks, several live centers, a drill chuck a BXA quick change tool holder and several other boxes of goodies.

I was alerted to the machine by members of another bulletin board. One of the long time members needed a larger machine and was putting this one up for sale. It may be in your interest to look in the classified sections of some of the professional boards. They have high quality machines at what I would call reasonable prices.

Other places to look are online auctions like Nationwide Public Surplus or similar state and local auction sites.
http://www.publicsurplus.com/

Then there are always the universities and local technical colleges. Along with that there are always professional shops advertising equipment on Craigslist. Over the years I've been able to find any machine I was looking for within a 200 mile radius. All have been in excellent condition and far less expensive than new Asian counterparts.

Granted it will probably take longer to find an old piece of American iron in good shape than it will take to order a new Asian machine. However for the difference in cost you can buy a considerable amount of tooling. In some cases the difference in price may also allow you to buy another machine. Then there's the subject of support after the sale. Most American machines built in the 1950's and later are still supported. Parts are still available, and it doesn't take 6 months to get them.

Over the years I have bought a few Asian machines. Unfortunately the product support was either poor or non existent. I recall having to wait over 6 months for a replacement part for a HF machine. I've never waited longer than a week when ordering parts for the older US built machines.

If you're willing to do the research and are patient and persistent I think you'll find lots of old American iron in good condition on the market.

 

[Dan_S]

I watched a video on scraping the other day and they mentioned how low quality and soft the cast iron is on Asian imports.

I watched that video with my dad, when it originally came out and he had a chuckle about how the guy equated hardness and quality with how hard it was to scrape. He quickly went over my head with his metallurgical explanation, but the gist of it was the old castings seemed harder and more dense because they where poor cast iron with a lot of impurities.

 

[ddickey]

Interesting

 

[mikey]

Again the availability and quality of the machines varies tremendously by location. I was able to find a Sheldon 13" machine in the Chicago area that had been totally rebuilt including having the ways ground. I paid about half what it would have cost to get a similar quality Asian machine. As for tooling the one I purchased came with 3 chucks, several live centers, a drill chuck a BXA quick change tool holder and several other boxes of goodies.

As you say, availability and quality vary widely by location. Many areas of the country are "machinery deserts" and what is available has been beat to hell and painted to cover it. Your machine may have been rebuilt but I assure you that that is not the norm. In the majority of cases the lathe does not come fully tooled and finding and buying a steady rest, follow rest and a full set of change gears can be difficult and expensive.

Then there are always the universities and local technical colleges. Along with that there are always professional shops advertising equipment on Craigslist. Over the years I've been able to find any machine I was looking for within a 200 mile radius. All have been in excellent condition and far less expensive than new Asian counterparts.

Again, this varies by location. When tech schools were common in every town ... maybe. Professional shops generally sell mostly worn machines that are being replaced. I've looked at numerous lathes being sold by pro shops and I wouldn't buy a single one of them - filthy, worn and expensive to repair.

Granted it will probably take longer to find an old piece of American iron in good shape than it will take to order a new Asian machine. However for the difference in cost you can buy a considerable amount of tooling. In some cases the difference in price may also allow you to buy another machine. Then there's the subject of support after the sale. Most American machines built in the 1950's and later are still supported. Parts are still available, and it doesn't take 6 months to get them.

Again, Projectnut, this varies with the area. I've helped to rebuild two 13" SB lathes and I've rebuilt an Emco 8" lathe. The two SB's took years to find. Each cost as much as a brand new PM1236 and both were beat to hell. The cost to repair/refurbish them was way more than we liked because parts had to be found on ebay at fairly high cost. Even after both lathes were done there was enough wear in the ways to be problematic when working up close to the chuck. Sure, we could have shipped the bed to have them reground and then scraped them but by then the cost would have easily doubled. Realistically, not going to happen. Maybe some old lathes are still supported but cost for parts is typically NOT cheap so we need to keep things in perspective.

Some guys like to rebuild old lathes. I enjoyed it myself. But to imply that its easy to do or accomplish by a guy new to the hobby or that its cheaper to arrive at a fully functional lathe ... maybe not the case, or at least not the norm.

 

[SSage]

I mainly decided to try a Chinese lathe due to the good reputation of Precision Matthews. I only can compare it to an old Logan and it's nice not fighting a worn machine. The lathe arrived in good ready to go condition thankfully. I haven't had any major problems with it, all it needed was a little clean up and gibs tightening. When I realized the coolant pump was doa, they replaced it. Had to get one from China. One day I'll do a vfd conversion. I like how the lathe came ready to go, quick change tool post was installed. Led light works good, love the drill chucks I bought too for the lathe and mill. It's nice not having to buy a project.

 

[Aaron_W]

My knowledge of the technical differences between machines is essentially limited to what I read here. However there are a lot of similarities to other hobbies I am more familiar with. You see similar debates between Glock and M1911, or new car vs vintage.


I think beyond simply the quality of the machine, as hobbyists we have many other considerations. Some may want the most cost effective and time efficient machine as a working shop would, but others may have different needs, some actually contrary to the "best".
Aesthetics of the machine, history of the machine, ease of use, ability to upgrade, and of course the big one for many of us, available budget.

Used equipment will never be able to compare with new for convenience, and ease of start up. With used you have to find it, evaluate it, get it home, make any needed repairs, track down tooling etc and figure out what is a reasonable price. For some people that hunt is fun and an important part of their hobby. It could be months or years before this machine is fully capable.

A new machine, you go online, find the machines in your budget (which unless you are shopping mini-machines, means an import for most people), choose a vendor, choose the tooling you want and pay your money. Most of the time the seller handles getting it to you, although reading recent posts on that subject there may be some adventure in that as well. Most new machines can be up and running within hours to a couple of days.

Someone here bought an old lathe that had been used in an FBI lab with possible (if unlikely) ties to the investigation of the JFK assassination which to me is just neat. I'm sure there are people who have lathes and mills that may have been used to make parts for M1 Garands or Norden bombsights during WW2, or maybe turned parts for the Apollo or Shuttle programs. That may have huge appeal for some people, and none at all for others.

Hobbies are weird and tend to defy set rules. Hobbyists also tend to think everybody does it for the same reason they do, despite much evidence to the contrary.

 

[Dabbler]

IF you are new to the machining game AND don't have a lot of wrench-experience, buy a new one and get started. No matter what new one you buy it will be worth 50% in a year just because you owned it (even if never used). The caveat here is that this is not a cheap hobby: buy a bigger, heavier, and higher quality lathe than you think you will ever use. Why? because if you are new, it is far easier to do good work on a more rigid machine. And then there is 2-inch-itis... Better buy bigger than have to buy twice.

That being said, the best deals are in used iron. IF you are patient AND keep cash on hand, AND you have experience OR a friend that can help you cull out the duds. I personally love old iron but my first machines were new, and I don't regret that. After 40 years of doing this, I am primarily looking at good quality, slightly abused, machines that need loving work. (why do I look? - because there's always a super deal just waiting to be restored!)

I am finally trying to replace my first lathe, bought new, with one that has a camlock spindle and 1000 pound heavier...

 

[SSage]

Most folks that ask this new vs old question are not very experienced. So, unless they have a friend to rely on I always suggest buying something with a warranty. I love old antique machinery, last one I bought took $1200 in parts to get fixed right. I'm not a novice buyer, but I don't know everything about 80 year old machines with no manual. When I bought it, I was told it only needed one minor thing fixed and I didn't know any better from lack of experience with the model. Now I know what to look for and what to take apart for inspection. I still came out fine, thankfully I bought the old girl cheap enough to justify the repairs. But, a novice or me can still buy a boat anchor without meaning too.

 

[projectnut]

As you say, availability and quality vary widely by location. Many areas of the country are "machinery deserts" and what is available has been beat to hell and painted to cover it. Your machine may have been rebuilt but I assure you that that is not the norm. In the majority of cases the lathe does not come fully tooled and finding and buying a steady rest, follow rest and a full set of change gears can be difficult and expensive.



Again, this varies by location. When tech schools were common in every town ... maybe. Professional shops generally sell mostly worn machines that are being replaced. I've looked at numerous lathes being sold by pro shops and I wouldn't buy a single one of them - filthy, worn and expensive to repair.



Again, Projectnut, this varies with the area. I've helped to rebuild two 13" SB lathes and I've rebuilt an Emco 8" lathe. The two SB's took years to find. Each cost as much as a brand new PM1236 and both were beat to hell. The cost to repair/refurbish them was way more than we liked because parts had to be found on ebay at fairly high cost. Even after both lathes were done there was enough wear in the ways to be problematic when working up close to the chuck. Sure, we could have shipped the bed to have them reground and then scraped them but by then the cost would have easily doubled. Realistically, not going to happen. Maybe some old lathes are still supported but cost for parts is typically NOT cheap so we need to keep things in perspective.

Some guys like to rebuild old lathes. I enjoyed it myself. But to imply that its easy to do or accomplish by a guy new to the hobby or that its cheaper to arrive at a fully functional lathe ... maybe not the case, or at least not the norm.

Obviously your experiences are far different than mine. Over the years I have purchased nearly a dozen pieces of equipment from professional shops. All of the machines were in excellent condition, and only needed a cursory cleaning before putting them to work in my shop. Some I've had for nearly 20 years while others have been in the shop for only a couple years. I don't think I've spent a total $500.00 in repair parts for these machines combined since I've owned them.

In addition I've purchased another dozen or so pieces of used equipment from local high schools, government facilities, and used equipment dealers. Like those purchased from professional shops none has needed anything other than a cleaning before they were put to work. I have easily spent as much money on consumable tooling as I have on the machines themselves. I agree it is not the cheapest hobby in the world. However it is not nearly as expensive as many others. Buying a quality tool is usually a once in a lifetime investment. It's mere age does not render it any less useful or desirable, and age does not necessarily mean obsolescence.

Putting it in perspective I know several people who have spent more money in a 5 year period on consumer electronics like flat screen TV's computers, cell phones, and tablets than I have spent a lifetime on machine tools. The truth be known they'll have to replace their electronic devices another 5 times over before I'll have to replace even one of my machines.

 

[.LMS.]

... It may be in your interest to look in the classified sections of some of the professional boards. They have high quality machines at what I would call reasonable prices.

Can you suggest such a place?