Lathe Rebuild, or Upgrade.

[dkemppai]

Hi,

Considering doing a rebuild, or upgrading to a different lathe.

Currently there's a Sheldon EL-46-P in the basement. It's pretty worn out, mostly from wear and abuse from many decades in a high school shop. But, I really like this little lathe. Nothing is broken, just worn out. Lead screw seems OK, but the tail stock seems particularly worn out. The thought would be to send it out to a shop to have all the ways machined/ground/scraped. Basically rebuilt, at least mechanically. (I doubt having someone else paint it is within budget, and maybe the old patina would be a better look anyway!) The plus with this machine is I have a fair bit of tooling. Bison 5C Chuck, 4 Jaw, 3 Jaw, Phase II quick change tool holder, and import DRO. Other than lack of taper turning, it's set up with most of what I need. Probably the biggest limitation is the tail stock drilling depth.

...Or, start shopping more seriously for a Hardinge HVL-H. Even a little worn 'super precision' lathe would be better than what's here currently. I think the HVL-H fits the bill more closely for what I tend to do. Although they tend to run on the more expensive side. What sorts of issues would a guy look for on a Hardinge? Pros/Cons, etc?

...Or look for a __________ (fill in the blank, suggestions here). Most of my lathe work is small parts. In a variety of materials (copper, brass, aluminum, hard steels, tool steels). Currently getting set up for ID/OD grinding, and some other ideas which are much crazier. For the most part I care about accurate precise work over hogging off material. I'd prefer a smaller machine, maybe up to a 4' bed. Power available is 120/240v single phase (Sitting close to 200A panel). Although, I could come up with a VFD or rotary phase converter if needed. (Current lathe runs on a Phase-A-Matic).

A rebuild is in the budget based on a quick phone call. A 'good' HVL-H might be a little on the high side, but not completely out of reach. A new Kent USA copy of the hardinge is NOT going to happen!

So, thoughts, suggestions, comments, questions? I'm all ears at this point.

Dan

 

[matthewsx]

If an HVL-H is in the cards I’d say go for it and don’t look back.

A 10EE was for sale not far from here recently. That would also be on my “ultimate” list.

John

 

[Winegrower]

There was (maybe is) a 10EE fully restored with solid state drive near here for $7000, and an HLV-H has always been on the wish list. The upgrade path means you’ll be using the new one instead of fussing with the old one.

 

[mikey]

Dan, throwing down the Hardinge HLV-H gauntlet is a pretty high bar. You will not find a comparable lathe with ABEC 9 headstock bearings, Teflon lined and scraped saddle/cross slide and all the other precision features of a Hardinge ... not even close in any available small lathe. If this is your lathe of choice then I would go for that and not settle for anything else because there just isn't anything else in this class of small precision lathe. There are Taiwanese copies but they are copies.

On the other hand, there are lesser lathes that may suffice, depending on what your needs for precision are. A low-mileage Emco Super 11 comes to mind; it is a fine Austrian-built lathe that is quite good for what it is, an 11 X 24 tool room class lathe. The PM 1236T isn't a bad lathe if you want a reasonably priced new Taiwanese lathe, or the PM1340GT if you really need that 40". None of these is in the Hardinge class, but neither are any of the old iron lathes.

If you don't mind, what are you doing that requires this level of precision?

 

[mksj]

There are a number of Hardinge copies that are made by mainstream lathe makers and are high precision, Sharp, Eisen, Victor, Acra, etc. I haven't used one, but as Mikey mentioned the PM-1236T/1340GT one can easily hit under 0.001" accuracy. With a 5C setup, I do a lot of small work (even with a bigger lathe). When you get used equipment, often there is wear near the headstock, so even if it is a precision lathe, you will not get accurate work. A single motor machine I would use a VFD, Hardinge/copies most likely an RPC. A 20A circuit is not going to cut it for anything over 2 Hp and/or multiple motors. You also mentioned a basement so do you have weight/size limitations getting the lathe moved in. I think you might be better off getting newer Taiwanese lathe, and if size is an issue you can get them in shorter beds. I currently have an ERL-1340 which is a very solid and accurate lathe, it can also be ordered in a 13 or 14 swing with a 30 or 40" bed. Price would be about the same as the used Victor Precision Engine lathe below and there are a lot of other capable/accurate lathes in this price range.

11" Swg 18" cc Victor 618EM PRECISION ENGINE LATHE, Inch/Metric, Vari-Speed, 5C

11" Swg 18" cc Victor 618EM PRECISION ENGINE LATHE, Inch/Metric, Vari-Speed, 5C- | eBay

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Or Look for one of these used in good condition.
ACRA ATL 618EVS2 TOOL ROOM LATHE - 5HP CAN BE RUN 220V,1PH OR 3PH

BRAND NEW ACRA ATL 618EVS1 TOOL ROOM LATHE - 5HP CAN BE RUN 220V,1PH OR 3PH | eBay

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EISEN CTL-618EVS Super High Precision Toolroom Lathe

EISEN CTL-618EVS Super High Precision Toolroom Lathe (Hardinge HLV style) | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for EISEN CTL-618EVS Super High Precision Toolroom Lathe (Hardinge HLV style) at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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SHARP 1118H High Precision Tool Room Lathe

Metalworking Lathes for sale | eBay

Get the best deals on Metalworking Lathes when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices.

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[Aaron_W]

There are actually a lot of smallish older high precision lathes out there, not Atlas / Craftsman in number, but they do turn up. Of course age can take its toll on accuracy, but because of the work environments they tend to be found in and the type of second, third, forth hand owners who seek them out they can be in remarkably good shape.

Many started off making watchmakers lathes which is one way you can start to look for some of the less well known. Hardinge of course is one, and there are older models that predate the HLV which came out in the 1940s. Advantage to some of these is price, many are something of an oddity so don't demand HLV / 10EE prices. On the minus column, parts and tooling can be hard to obtain so condition and tooling when you find them is everything.

Rivett was a competitor of Hardinge and offered high quality tool room lathes in the 8x21 to 12x30 range until the 1960s. Schaublin is another, they have offered a variety of lathes from 8x18" to 12x30". Schaublin is still making lathes so parts may be more available, but being Swiss made I don't want to see the price list.
Van Norman is on the more obscure end but they made some 8" precision lathes, potentially an option but they would be 100+ years old so probably more of a chance discovery than actively hunting one down.
South Bend also offered tool room versions of many of their lathes which cost 25-50% more than the standard models. Probably not in the same class as these others, but a good one would be in a different class from your run of the mill "old iron"

On the new front the Grizzly "South Bend" Heavy 10 might be worth considering as well, although it is at a price that you are well within the realm of a used HLV, 10EE or similar.


If you have the budget for an HLV or 10EE though, you have many options.

 

[Ischgl99]

I will third the recommendation of a PM-1236T, I have one in my basement and it is a very nice lathe. I can turn to a 0.001” target fairly easily with this lathe. It’s light enough that getting it into the basement shouldn’t be a problem, and you could use your existing chucks with the appropriate back plates.

 

[projectnut]

What is it that makes you think you "Need "a Hardinge Hvl-H for accuracy? I have a Sheldon MW-56-P and it can easily work to .0001" accuracy. The previous owner rebuilt the top end including new bearings in the headstock and regrinding the bed and cross slide ways. After about a year of ownership I rebuilt the Worthington drive. The machine is like new mechanically. I considered a new paint job but decided to leave the hard-earned patina.

The total cost to purchase and completely rebuild the machine was slightly over $3500.00 in today's money. I have close to double that money in accessories like chucks, steady rest, follow rest, faceplate, dog plate, a collet system, tool posts and holders, centers, and other assorted tooling. If you think you can get the accuracy you need out of your current machine it would be far less costly to rebuild it than replace it.

If you're lucky enough to find a machine that will accept your current accessories you might be able to save a few bucks. However, if that doesn't happen accessories for a Hardinge could raise the cost exponentially.

As for grinding on a lathe, I personally would stay away from it. There's nothing more destructive to ways, bearings, gears, and screws than grinding dust. Even though you do your best to cover and protect vital parts the dust always seems to migrate and end up in places that are expensive to repair. If it were my shop and I intended to do ID and OD grinding I would purchase a B&S, Cincinnati, or similar machine and as far from the lathe as possible position it

 

[dkemppai]

Hi All,

I'll try to address comments here. All very good things to consider.

I don't really NEED an HLV-H. However, it seems like the right size and covers all of the 'wish list' wants. There's many features in the HLV-H that simply 'make sense' looking at the machine. The Sheldon has more thread cutting pitch options than the Hardinge, so +1 for the Sheldon on that! But the drive on the carriage of the Hardinge mostly negate that.

A new Hardinge clone is more than I want to spend. I'd rather put 1/4 to 1/3 of that into a good used one, and maybe a rebuild if necessary.

I hadn't considered a 10EE, that's now on the list. Will also look at the PM as well.

Basement yes, but moving (10' ceilings, 4' door) and power (200A panel) are not an issue. The basement is effectively finished, and has good climate control. (So tools don't just rust away, and are very stable.)

Honestly, my machines do paying work at times. The Sheldon has more than earned itself a rebuild. However, that funding could just as easily be applied to a more capable machine. (And the Sheldon moved to the detached shop.)

@projectnut, This Sheldon looks similar to yours (spotted yours on PM). I really do like the machine, so am seriously considering having it redone. I'm sure cleaned up it will do a fine job. Rebuild cost and two 10+ hour days on the road are things to consider.
I certainly hear your concerns about grinding, but have a few upcoming projects that may not be doable otherwise. Any grinding would be the bare minimum necessary, of course!

It's tough call. Honestly, I'd be happy either way...

 

[lordbeezer]

I have a 11” Sheldon bed in good shape you can have for a donation to HM but you’re a long drive from me.