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Monarch 10EE - what to do?

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Phayb

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#1
Hello out there. I have a question for those knowledgeable in the ways of the 10EE lathes. I came across an old round dial 10EE - my guess is around 1942-ish. The only tag I found (about 1/2" x 2") is stamped 4512 and the round dial has a 'T' shaped handle. By looking at photos, it looks to be from that era. The machine is a cosmetic disaster but the ways look to be in really good shape under the grime and surface rust after a quick rub and check with my finger nail. It's been sitting in a barn for a couple of years. The original drive is long gone. The motor driving it is a DC unit with a large quick disconnect you would see on forklift batteries. The headstock side end covers, top and bottom, are missing (the previous owner set them aside to get access for the cobbled up drive set-up and they are now lost somewhere). There is no low range gearbox either. It comes with a bunch of chucks and faceplates. I'm on the fence as to what to do (I wouldn't be scared to tackle the restoration). My original plan is to get one replacement lathe for my 2 Southbends (a 9A with collets and taper attachment and a Heavy 10) for two reasons - floor space and working height. I'm 6'-1" with long-ish legs and the Southbend lathes are about 6" too low for me to work on comfortably (at least now they are). My only concern with the 10EE is the covers and gearbox...not sure I can find replacements. I can make an adapter for a gearbox and I thought I could make aluminum covers if it came to it. I use my lathes infrequently for little projects in my shop - mostly car related projects.

Thoughts? Comments?

Fabio
 

pacifica

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#2
I would measure wear on the ways like this:

Super lathe but complex, hope youre really good with electrics(10ee stands for electrical engineer:cool:)
 

extropic

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#3
If you want a working lathe, put 6x6 risers under your SBs and move on.

What's the seller asking for the 10EE?

If you want a new major project get the 10EE. The Monarch has a well respected reputation and can be a really nice small lathe. Eventually you may be able to buy or build whatever you want to construct your own Frankenlathe. Maybe, if the price is right, buy it, clean it up and part it out. Put the profit toward a more attractive project?
 

Karl_T

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#4
The 10EE is one of the finest lathes ever built. A wore out is better than 90% of the lathes out there.

new covers will cost ya. I'd run without them or fab some up out of sheet metal.

The drive would be dead on that old lathe anyway, so you have not lost much.

Not having the backgear means you will have to have a bigger spindle motor to get torque at low speed. My suggestion, find a used 10 hp three phase motor and get a 10 or 15 hp VFD from one of the great online vendors of these. My favorite happens to automation direct. But that is only because they have treated me so good over the years. many other vendors. This is a quick and easy job. be glad to help if you have not done this sort of thing before.

You could stop here, or you can go clear through it for a complete rebuild. just doing the above will likely make it run for years.
 

Cal Haines

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#5
The chances of finding the missing covers or the back-gear unit are close to zero.

If you look at the right end of the ways, in front of the tailstock (between the tailstock and front Vee way) you'll find the serial number stamped. The T-handle means that it's an older round-dial 10EE; probably built before mid-1942. I would need to see a photo of the tailstock end of the base to see if it originally had an inline motor/generator (MG) or the newer, piggyback model.

Don't let anyone tell you that the "old" 10EE MG drives aren't extremely good drives. If you spend a lot of time on a VFD conversion, you might end up with a drive that's about as good as the original DC motor drive. The fact that so many original MG drives are still service after two thirds of a century of use speaks to how robust they are. Ten years from now, the odds are that at least one of the chips needed to repair a given VFD drive will not longer be available, but you'll still be able to repair every part of an MG drive--in your own shop if you're clever enough. Most of the MG drives that get torn out probably just needed brushes or had a loose wire or a bad component that was easily repaired/replaced.

I know of two MGs that are available for the asking, if you want to go that route. Assuming that the existing DC motor is already in place and belted up to the spindle, an electronic DC motor controller is an option. KB Electronics makes a drive that sells for about $165 that will run the motor. It doesn't do field-weakening, so you can't get full speed out of the motor, but if you still have the large rheostats from the MG drive, there's a way around that.

We need to see some pictures of the DC motor and anything else in the compartment under the headstock.
 

pacifica

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#6
You can buy several VFD's for the price of the Thyratron C16J vacuum tube, believe a 10ee needs 2.
 

mksj

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#7
If you use your lathes infrequently, than you may be better off with a new lathe or a used one in better condition. Parts for the 10EE usually command a high price, and the chance of getting a ggear box are next to nil at a reasonable price (let alone getting it shipped to Canada). Without the gearbox you could drop in a 10Hp motor, but you would need a 20Hp VFD if running off of single phase. This is because the diode bridge is meant to carry current through all three legs. Thus, the rule of thumb for sizing the single phase input on a three-phase drive is to use a VFD rated for 2 times the FLA of the motor. For example if your 3 phase motor is a 10 HP with a FLA of 28 amps, then you would need to select a VFD with an output amp rating of 56 amps which ends up being around 20 HP, possible get by with 15 Hp. You probably would need a 100A service to run the VFD on single phase. If you have a 15 Hp or larger RPC you could run a 10Hp VFD off of the RPC. A lot of power and cost for a lack of gearbox fix. With a gearbox you would do fine with a 5Hp motor and there are single phase 5Hp input VFDs, but a decent one will still run you around $600 and the other costs you will probably be into it for 1K US for the electrics/switches.

If all the pieces were there and you knew everything worked, then worth the trouble, otherwise would pass.
 

Chuck K

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#8
If you buy it right and decide it's not something you want to invest the time in, you can easily recoup your money just selling a few of the parts.
 

Ray C

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#9
If you're a automotive enthusiast and just want to make basic parts, I think a 10EE that needs a lot of work, will put an end to you working on cars for the next year, possibly two.

Ray
 

pacifica

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#10
I looked at several 10ee's, both seemed very nice, $12k. Looked at several colchesters. Had a harrison boxster.but I wanted to spend my time making things not fixing a lathe, and always there is wear on the ways of a lathe 50 plus years old.
Ended buying a PM 1340 GT which is precise,a good size and installing an hitachi vfd. Good support here for that combination.
Pick your poison.
 

Cal Haines

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#11
You can buy several VFD's for the price of the Thyratron C16J vacuum tube, believe a 10ee needs 2.
No. Not all 10EEs had vacuum tube drives. And I assure that none of the T-handle round-dial 10EEs (like the one Phayb is looking at) did. And, as I said, the DC spindle motor can be powered by a DC motor controller for about the cost of a VFD, with no need buy and adapt an AC motor.
 

Silverbullet

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#12
Look at the quality of the machine , not one of these new pm or grizzly lathes will ever last as long as the 10ee . I'm a USA man if entirely possible. I'd be extremely happy to get one even needing repair. Sounds like the price must be fair so grab it , you won't be unhappy . The dc drive sounds like it's almost ready to run . If it's less then $2k your in they sell for much more when junk. Pictures will help more.
 

Karl_T

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#13
Without the gearbox you could drop in a 10Hp motor, but you would need a 20Hp VFD if running off of single phase...
That is being WAY too conservative and wasting his money. A 10EE would never even use 5 hp, just need low end torque of a 10hp motor. It would be prudent to get a 15hp VFD, but a 10hp will work on single phase. This is a guideline sort of thing that always draws controversy. Now if you need full hp out of a three phase motor with 100% duty cycle, then you should double the size of the VFD.

Karl
 

mksj

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#14
That is being WAY too conservative and wasting his money. A 10EE would never even use 5 hp, just need low end torque of a 10hp motor
I guess you did not read what I said, which is you would need a 10Hp without the gearbox. With the gearbox, there are numerous conversions using a 5Hp VFD that work just fine. Your choice on how you want to burn up your VFD and void the warranty, I have had this discussion in other forums and manufactures, and the minimum up sizing running a 3 phase VFD off of single phase is 1.5X. The quality of the VFD does come into play, but hey why not just get one of the single phase 10Hp VFDs with a 2 year warranty and go for it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10HP-7-5KW...ase-Single-Speed-Inverter-220VAC/202035769448
10EE 5:1 gearbox
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MONARCH-10-EE-LATHE-MOTOR-W-GEAR-BOX-/292151115571

A great machine does not make a great machinist, a competent machinist can use a less expensive machine and still do great work for what they need it for. This is not aerospace production. I doubt any of us would wear out the hardened bed on a new lathe under normal "hobbyist" use. So it comes down to do you want the lathe as a project, or do you want a lathe to use.
 

pacifica

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#15
And issues of footprint,spindle nose,5c collets or hard to find collets,weight of machine for transport,spindle bore,money for qctp,holders,knurlers,etc.
 

Cadillac STS

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#16
I vote for not going with the 10EE if you don’t have it already, sell all your Southbend lathe stuff and buy a new Precision Matthews lathe. It will likely cost less than the 10EE (plus all the things to get it running) and will be new out of the crate ready to go.

If you have the 10EE already sell it for profit and apply the money to the new lathe cause
 

Phayb

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#18
Well...people of the forum...I thank all of you for your comments and opinions...very much appreciated! I decided to buy it and see what happens. It's at home in my shop. The transport from the seller was effortless as well as the unloading into my shop. And for the money, I think it'll be an interesting project to dig into. I already like the height and overall size of the machine - it makes the Southbend lathes I have look like toys! Once I find the serial number, I will post it here for those that are interested. As I mentioned previously, it does not have the large tag like I see on other lathes - not sure why that is - likely the mystery of the adventure in and of itself! More to come...stay tuned!
 

mksj

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#19
If you do decide to use a back gear you might look at the eBay listing I posted as an option. I would probably toss the motor but keep the back spider that attaches to the back of the gearbox. You could mount a plate to is and use a C face or flange motor to mount to it and adapt a coupling between the two or fabricate something new. Others have modified other housings. You might look at the post below where he used the gearbox and a 5Hp motor with good results. I like the Yaskawa VFDs, I use them in some of my higher end builds, but they can be pricey. There is a vendor out of UK that ships internationally and is much more less expensive than buying in the US. I do have some parameter files for these VFDs.
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/10ee-vfd-conversion.64230/
 

Cal Haines

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If you do decide to use a back gear you might look at the eBay listing I posted as an option. I would probably toss the motor but keep the back spider that attaches to the back of the gearbox. You could mount a plate to is and use a C face or flange motor to mount to it and adapt a coupling between the two or fabricate something new. ...
Have you actually done this? Have you ever had the chance to operate a 10EE with a DC drive?
 

mksj

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#22
I have worked on DC drives and they can work very well, I have not directly worked on the 10EE drive. If you read the eBay posting the DC motor attached to the gearbox is in unknown condition, and getting it to work as originally designed would be challenging. I am sure there are some work arounds for alternate SS drives, but the few I checked into a while back had numerous problems. If you have the expertise, please guide the new owner on the installation you recommend. My other concern was the shipping of the gearbox with the motor to Canada would be prohibitive. I have worked with a few other people in another forum who did various conversions with their 10EE, most ended up installing VFD drives at the end of the day. If you purchased a new Monarch EE it is also how they come from the factory these days.
 
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Doubleeboy

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#25
Congrats on the new lathe. If you don't know already, a wealth of info on Monarch 10ee is waiting for you at Practical Machinist in the Monarch forum. Hundreds of posts about restoring, repairing, or replacing drives. As your lathe is a MG lathe initially you may find if you are patient that you can find complete drive units available for not much cost other than shipping. Monarch does not support the MG machines anymore, but they have the build print and schematic for your particular machine that may be worth purchasing. Lots of folks love their MG machines, Raytheon Industries in particular still had a row of MG machines in their shop not many years ago. Their service wizard liked em, so that is what they had. the Wards/Leonard drive that was in MG machines was a drive system that many repair people understood as it was used extensively in elevators. Having used a original DC drive EE for over a dozen years and having turned on a couple of retrofit machines, not knocking anyones retrofit, but I would not hesitate to fix my original drive instead of junking it. Only when I had come to the end of my patience would a ditch the original drive and go AC. There is a reason that Monarch stuck with DC drive as long as they did. Not to rag on but my machine which is over 60 years old runs on 40 year old tubes that are weak, and this machine still makes a mockery of any lathe you can buy from Taiwan except maybe a HLVH clone.
 

Cal Haines

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#26
... Monarch does not support the MG machines anymore, but they have the build print and schematic for your particular machine that may be worth purchasing. ...
Monarch still sells brushes for MG machines, but that's about it. They don't do a very good job of providing documentation for round-dial 10EEs. For about $75, they will sell you a poor photocopy of the manual and a copy of the most common version of the wiring diagram, which may or may not be the one for your machine. (There are at least eight different MG wiring diagrams, so it's very much a krap shoot.) The one unique thing that you do get is the build sheet for your machine, which shows how it was originally configured and who it sold to.

For square-dial machines, Monarch sends you a generic set of assembly drawings, but the assembly drawing for the round-dials have apparently been misplaced (for the most part). Round-dial documentation is considered "OBSOLETE-DISCARDED" and they no longer attempt to maintain it.

Metal Illness has a much better version of the manual here: MetalIllness - Monach 10EE manuals (The link isn't working right now, hopefully it will be back up.)

I visited Monarch about three years ago and talked with the president about this and he wasn't interested in trying to improve the quality of the documentation they sell, even though I offered free help.
 

Phayb

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#28
The stamped lettering on the bed are "INSPECTED NHE Lot No. 12653". Looks like it's a 1941 model. There are faint hole marks where the original ID tag was. Who knows what happened to the tag...or the end covers...or the original drive system. The guy that I bought the lathe from said it belonged to an old farmer that restored Cockshutt tractors. When he got too old to mess around with the stuff, he sold off what he had. I'm looking forward to bringing it back to life.

The gearbox/motor that is on ebay...is that a reasonable price? It's about a 6 hour drive each way for me to go and get it. I think I should do some more research and figure out my plan of attack. I like the idea of the reduction gearbox for a low speed range. In the end, it'll be a home shop machine...but I like to do things correctly and not cut corners. I'm the type that likes to see all of the buttons and levers on the machine do what they were orignally intended to do. In case anyone is wondering, gray will be the colour. :)
 

Doubleeboy

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#29
Before you go buying motor or generator I would spend some time reading every applicable post about MG machines on Practical Machinist Monarch board. Maybe introduce yourself there and explain your situation and goals. There are only a handful of EE enthusiasts (users) here. Over there resides many more with at least 15 years plus of posts about these lathes. There are some chaps there who have many schematics which could be sent to you possibly. Numerous guys there have restored or rebuilt multiple machines. Besides Cal, there is also off the top of my head rkepler or something similar who I know has redone at least one MG maybe more. Not taking anything away from HM but most of the black belts of 10EE can be found at PM board.
 

Karl_T

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#30
I assume you mean this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MONARCH-10...115571?hash=item4405903f33:g:aqkAAOSwbopZQZU7

you will likely not find it cheaper.

What is your time worth and cost to get it? For me, I'd have to add another $1000, you may see it different.


A 10 hp 3phase motor and 15 hp VFD will make a fine drive for this lathe. I did the 5hp 3phase motor and VFD with a backgear on mine. it may be slightly better, certainly has a bit more low end torque. Doing the mechanical work to fit the backgear to another motor is not a small job. there is a GREAT recent thread here on how to do it.

I would also add the cost of additional build time and parts cost for a backgear. Myself I'd add another $1000 for build time and part cost.


Now a 15hp VFD and 10 hp 3 phase motor will cost more. My GUESS is its real close to the $2.5K I estimated above. You might do quite a bit better with careful shopping.


Either option is a good way to go, not a bad decision here. make your pick and get on with it.


Just my two cents.
 
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