Needing more than a spark test?

I think Homebrew is correct that the gamma emission occurs simultaneously with with alpha? Seems like that will be a lot of flux with 6 sources. I suspect the geometry and the efficiency losses will substantially reduce the signal however. The Am 241 gamma has to hit the sample and then the xray photon from the sample has to hit the scintillator. That is a relatively small part of the spherical area. Does any one know the activity or number of sources in a Bruker?
Robert
You are correct that the Am241 output has a majority of alpha decay.
α-decay (alpha) 5.486 MeV
γ-emission (gamma) 0.0595409 MeV

As I understand it, alpha particles (helium nuclei) are stopped even by a piece of paper, and even if some hit the sample, they don't do any more than heat it up (tiny amount). I expect all of what comes back off the sample will be what was provoked by the gamma. We probably don't get but a fraction of that anyway, because the X-ray photons will head off in all sorts of directions. Some onward, deeper into the sample, some from within the sample that did not make it back out, some sideways, etc.
 
I though we ruled out the SiPM approach earlier due to noise? This would be really cool if you built one based on the SiPM and Graham built one with a PMT.
I read about LYSO scintillators. Sounds like a good plan. A little less sensitive than CsI but not being hygroscopic is big.
Robert
Thinking on that - yes, there will be at least one PMT doing this. I am, however, thinking that it is only the scintillator that needs to be big. Long enough to stop the incoming photons, turning them into light, and enough area to pick up most of what comes off the sample. The acrylic polished taper tube light funnel can deliver the scintillation flashes onto a small area S-PM photodiode.

A PMT has only one signal output, no matter where some light lands on it. I think, in the end, a SiPM on the end of a perspex light guide, not needing magnetic shielding (we still need the lead), not needing a high voltage supply, is looking more convenient.
Um .. looking for the refractive index and critical angle of acrylic to get the taper dimension if we start with (say) 25mm diameter capture area scintillator, and end up on (say) 3mm x 3mm.
(Edit: ϴc = arcsin(1/1.48130 = 42.46°)
 
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You are correct that the Am241 output has a majority of alpha decay.
α-decay (alpha) 5.486 MeV
γ-emission (gamma) 0.0595409 MeV

As I understand it, alpha particles (helium nuclei) are stopped even by a piece of paper, and even if some hit the sample, they don't do any more than heat it up (tiny amount). I expect all of what comes back off the sample will be what was provoked by the gamma. We probably don't get but a fraction of that anyway, because the X-ray photons will head off in all sorts of directions. Some onward, deeper into the sample, some from within the sample that did not make it back out, some sideways, etc.
From what I have read, alpha decay is the primary mode. The alpha particle is ejected from the nucleus of Am 241, resulting in a Np 237 nucleus. The alpha particle is charged to a +2 state due to the lack of the two electrons which it quickly picks up. It's energy is by virue of the ejection speed which is around 10% of the speed of light. The Np 237 nucleus can be in an excited state and when it returns to a lower energy state it emits a photon. My CRC Handbook lists alpha particle energies of 5.476 and 5.433 MeV and gamma energies of 59.7, 100, and 41 KeV with 59.7 KeV being predominant. These energies may be slightly different than current values. The Handbook was published in 1961.

Np 237 is relatively stable with a half life of 2.2E6 yrs. and although it decays by alpha emission, I wouldn't expect to see any further contribution.

The alpha particles will make no contribution to the fluorescence measurement. As far as I know, they are not capable of creating gamma rays.
 
Keep in mind that many of the scintillation crystals are intended to collect higher energy photons and therefore need to be physically larger. From work I had done in medical physics, the MeV level photons from a linear accelerator have a much greater penetration. Unfortunately, that was two decades ago and my memory is somewhat fuzzy.

There was a product we made that measured total energy of an x-ray beam integrated over time. Because of the large range, it used a "charge bucket" method. A "charge bucket" collected charge and when filled, it added a count and dumped the bucket. An eight decade counter was used to record the number of buckets. This was used in conjunction with an ion chamber. This would be another possible method for measuring charge from an event.
 
Here is a link I found where someone else did this basic exercise. BTW they got some very nice, discrete peaks.

Obviously the alpha decay is not of interest here and is easily filtered out (physically). I cannot find a reference that indicates how often Am 241 gives off a gamma during the alpha decay? Some references seem to indicate that the gamma occurs for every event (1:1.)
The paper above reports detection of peaks related to Neptunium gammas as well. It will be interesting to see if and how you can distinguish the characteristic "appearance" of each metal with all the minor peaks and noise. On a basic level, assuming the hardware is adequate, you could just record each graph for a known material and they try to figure out what it most closely matches. This could even be done outside of the detector. Perhaps the detector sends the graph to a network resource and a program there does the matching. Maybe even web based? i.e I send my graph to your server and you tell me what I have. Just thinking out loud.
Robert
 
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Here is a link I found where someone else did this basic exercise. BTW they got some very nice, discrete peaks.
Robert
Most excellent find Robert - thanks much.

What we do with the collected scintillation samples, and sort them into buckets, rejecting some, is all for later.
I plan to grab/copy/learn from available software for getting the basic plot display up first.

There is a whole lot of "it's nice to have" stuff that may not be there at first, like on-plot annotations of identified peaks, and much else.

I can see from here that it is worthwhile to shell out the £30 or so on a tiny computer with some respectable power. For me, that is the Raspberry Pi 4. I happened to go for the £44 (I think) version with all guns blazing, 64-bit 1.5GHz ARM v8 with 4GB of DRAM, and much more flash memory than most phones have. I am not sure what the limit is, but the one on the desk has 64GB of microSD plugged in. This one is for the development convenience.

I find it nice that it just so easily gets onto the internet, accepts my network cable, can be made rock-solid secure, (no permissions for any external access), and I can install and mess with the software I find, directly on it, and because the whole OS is free, and powerful.

A dedicated 7" colour screen is £16, but I am using one of the two 4K video HDMI display outputs for now, to a regular monitor.

Once we have it figured out, the final gadget can use the smallest version capable of doing the job. The cut-down version with only one USB, no video, etc. can use a smartphone for a display. Getting software apps in the form for Android apps (.apk) is a bit involved, but not beyond us.

I have no idea how to get a user app into an iPhone playstore.
 
An interesting paper Robert. I note that they use a 100,000 uCi source for their work and are achieving peaks in the several thousand counts. No mention of the time to collect a sample though.
edit: I found their counting time; 2000 seconds.
 
The cross-section of the (lead) source holder in Fig 1 is interesting - and odd.
The directions of scatter will be at more angles than the (one) picked out to get through a small hole.

Is that collimating to exclude unwanted scatter responses?
We might expect to detect lead, even if there is none in the test sample target.

I would have had the scinillator crystral right in there slightly to the right of the source(s) , so shielded from them, gathering as much as possible. Have I missed something?
 
Here is a link I found where someone else did this basic exercise. BTW they got some very nice, discrete peaks.

Obviously the alpha decay is not of interest here and is easily filtered out (physically). I cannot find a reference that indicates how often Am 241 gives off a gamma during the alpha decay? Some references seem to indicate that the gamma occurs for every event (1:1.)
The paper above reports detection of peaks related to Neptunium gammas as well. It will be interesting to see if and how you can distinguish the characteristic "appearance" of each metal with all the minor peaks and noise. On a basic level, assuming the hardware is adequate, you could just record each graph for a known material and they try to figure out what it most closely matches. This could even be done outside of the detector. Perhaps the detector sends the graph to a network resource and a program there does the matching. Maybe even web based? i.e I send my graph to your server and you tell me what I have. Just thinking out loud.
Robert

The paper shows a nice geometry for an XRF setup. I think it is pretty similar to at least one of the Theremino configurations and worth stealing, er, borrowing. The detector is a high-purity Germanium diode, cooled with LN2. Detectors like these have a large depletion region, created by "drifting" lithium into the semiconductor, and, once the lithium is where the manufacturer wants it the detector is cooled down to 77K. And for the rest of its useful life it MUST be kept at 77K. Not too practical for a hobbyist-level XRF.

At the lab where I used to work we had a lithium-drifted detector that was specified to have an energy resolution down in the low (single-digit) electron volt range. It was in a large Dewar that held about a gallon of LN2, and had a liquid level sensor in it that would alarm when the level got too low. We had to top it off every week. Rain or shine, Snowmageddon or not. That detector, more than anything else, was where the $$$ was in that system. Maybe I didn't add enough dollar signs but you get the drift (bad pun).

There are lots of "gun" style XRF tools offered for sale that just can't be using HPGe detectors so I know it must be possible. Unfortunately, the goal of separating all the peaks of metals that go into steel alloys, particularly manganese vs iron or iron vs chromium, is going to be challenging--IF all we are depending on is the resolution of our detector and S/W combination.

It might be possible to enhance the system resolution by using X-Ray energy filters. For an example, see this paper. FYI, 1.5 Angstroms is 150nm, corresponding to about 8.6Kev. So the paper can't be applied as such. But....

Taking the X-ray filter notion a bit further, I made up a table that summarizes the x-ray lines and absorption edges for Vanadium through Nickel. I got the absorption information from here, and the table is attached. The absorption edge is the energy at which the absorption abruptly decreases, so emission lines at an energy less than that will be attenuated more than those above it, by about an order of magnitude. So to distinguish manganese from iron we would need a filter whose ideal absorption edge lies between the emission lines of manganese and iron, 5.89Kev and 6.400Kev respectively. From the table, Chromium fits the bill. But if we want to tell the difference between iron and cobalt we might want to use a Manganese filter. And so on. Maybe I've just moved the challenge to finding thin metal foils of these metals. Some will be easier to find than others.

BTW, I don't think we will need to worry about x-ray fluorescence from the filter materials, as long as they are not exposed to the Americium gamma rays. The photon energy coming into the filter won't be much higher, if at all, than the filter's x-ray line so not a lot of extra energy available to excite fluorescence. I hope....
 

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Lead's K-alpha line is 74.2Kev so the Americium gamma ray can't tickle that one. Its L-alpha is 10.549Kev and M-alpha is 2.34Kev, both different enough to easily distinguish from iron and its nearby cousins.
 
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