New to me 5904

Tenpounder

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So I picked up a 5904. I've been looking for the 24 inch model for a few years and patience has paid off. It needs a good general look over and new belts. Ways look great for its age. Any body ever swap these 3ph units to 1ph? This unit has a 1.5 hp 3ph motor with a Baldor adjustable speed drive box on it. My only idea for it being there is to soft start the 3ph motor...??? Then again it has a potentiometer wired to the factory variable speed control. Any ideas how this all works?
The lathe came with taper attachment, tail stock, collet closer, a beat up chuck and a quick change tool post I have never seen before but no wrenches/ spindle spanner. 00P0P_cL4daWtnE2k_1200x900.jpg 20200228_144724.jpg
 

LEEQ

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Congrats, that looks like a great machine. It also looks like a candidate for a vfd. It would be reasonably cheap to add a variable frequency drive that converts single phase into three phase for your motor. It can also take care of variable speed. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but that you should look into and consider it. A lot of us are swapping out our single phase motors for three phase motors coupled with vfd. You appear to be halfway there already. Have fun, and good luck.
 

wa5cab

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From reading what is and noting what isn't printed on the front panel of the Baldor Variable Speed Drive, my guess is that the machine already has an industrial grade VFD installed. It just runs off of 3-phase instead of single phase. If I were you, I would try to contact Baldor first or if they were driven belly up by the chinese at least get the maintenance manual on the thing. It is probably possible to convert it to single phase as the text mentions an inverter which probably runs off of either 250 or 500 VDC. If that is correct, all that you would need to convert would be the DC power supply. How expensive that would be would mainly depend upon whether they used three single phase transformers or a true 3-phase unit.
 

Tenpounder

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From reading what is and noting what isn't printed on the front panel of the Baldor Variable Speed Drive, my guess is that the machine already has an industrial grade VFD installed. It just runs off of 3-phase instead of single phase. If I were you, I would try to contact Baldor first or if they were driven belly up by the chinese at least get the maintenance manual on the thing. It is probably possible to convert it to single phase as the text mentions an inverter which probably runs off of either 250 or 500 VDC. If that is correct, all that you would need to convert would be the DC power supply. How expensive that would be would mainly depend upon whether they used three single phase transformers or a true 3-phase unit.
This is great and mind blowing. Thank you! So let me fully digest this.... After reading this, reading a few articles, and watching some informative Eaton training videos. I can run the installed, old as dirt 1.5hp, 3ph, Peerless motor off a single phase input VFD?
The lathe currently is all set up original, sheaves and belts for variable speed of the spindle. Wouldn't it be counter intuitive to run the motor also at variable speed? From the reading I've done, this would save on power consumption.
Let me step back.... lathe original set up would have been this... Start lathe. Motor running constant speed. Turning the variable speed dial handle changes the sheave pitch thus changing speed of the spindle but not changing motor speed. Correct?
Now enter this Baldor VFD..... Start motor. Motor running "X" speed. Turn the variable speed dial handle (which has a potentiometer mounted under it wire to the VFD) changes the sheave pitch thus changing speed of the spindle but also the speed of the motor... Won't those combined cause inaccurate speeds?
Would I have to direct drive the motor to the spindle?

Thanks in advance for any reply.
 

LEEQ

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Nothing says you have to use the vfd to do more than provide 3 phase at a constant frequency. You could then use the lathe to vary speed as designed.Wa5cab might have you a way to preserve the baldor unit, and again nothing says you have to change speed with that either. I don't know anything about that, but I did fit a simple teco drive to my 3phase Bridgeport. It now runs on 220v single phase. I mostly use the belts to change speed, but I use the vfd also to adjust in between speeds. However you go about it, I don't see a need to change the way the motor drives the lathe. To me, half the fun of metalworking has been to figure things like this out and get a bit of education in the process.
 

mmcmdl

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Following along on this one . :encourage:
 

Tenpounder

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Nothing says you have to use the vfd to do more than provide 3 phase at a constant frequency. You could then use the lathe to vary speed as designed.Wa5cab might have you a way to preserve the baldor unit, and again nothing says you have to change speed with that either. I don't know anything about that, but I did fit a simple teco drive to my 3phase Bridgeport. It now runs on 220v single phase. I mostly use the belts to change speed, but I use the vfd also to adjust in between speeds. However you go about it, I don't see a need to change the way the motor drives the lathe. To me, half the fun of metalworking has been to figure things like this out and get a bit of education in the process.
Thanks this is great info. After a night of restless sleep, I see the application for the VFD. Use the VFD at 100% for constant speed/frequency of the motor and use the OEM drive to change the spindle speed. Also will be the availability to change the speed of the motor by why of the VFD if desired.
It seem so simple it can't be true. This is a great eye opener.
The next step will be to get a new VFD, single phase in three phase out. Megger check the installed Peerless 3ph motor. Then rewire the lathe for the new VFD. Run a new circuit in the shop. Then play till my hearts content. :)
I think I have finally have a project worth a build thread. As seemingly simple as you make it out to be. Alas this is a budget build and time is usually not in my favor. Time and money..... If I have one, I don't have the other!
Story and pictures to continue.
 

mksj

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The inverter drive is a Baldor Series 11 VFD circa mid 90's. It can run on single phase in a derated mode, so most likely the VFD is a 2 Hp model, in derated mode it is rated for 1 Hp on single phase. It may be sufficient to run the lathe as is on single phase. It is a very old unit but they were over built at the time. Biggest concern would be the power supply capacitors which go with time. If you power it up on single phase, just let it sit powered for 1-2 hours before running the motor. This may reform some of the electrolytic's in the power supply. I would see if you can find a model number on the VFD which would give some more information as to ratings.

The VFD is already wired into the the control system for the lathe, by looking at the terminal connections and the VFD settings you should be able to workout what the wires are connected to/function. (i.e. For. Rev. Jog Free run etc.). You may be able to pull the programming information from the VFD if it powers up, see the manual.

The wiring control functions are very similar to other VFD's that have a common terminal and then separate inputs for the low voltage connections. It should be straight forward if you need to replace the VFD with a newer model, which would be about 1/4 the size. The Lenze SMV line has a control arrangement that is very similar to this old Baldor, I can give some more detailed recommendations if you find the the VFD needs to be replaced.

It is unclear if the speed is being adjusted with the VFD drive or it is just using to provide 60Hz 3 phase and the speed is being changed mechanically.

Picture of drive type:
Baldor  AC Motor Adjustable Speed Drive, 200-230VAC.JPG

Review the attached manual for the Baldor AC drive.
 

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Tenpounder

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The inverter drive is a Baldor Series 11 VFD circa mid 90's. It can run on single phase in a derated mode, so most likely the VFD is a 2 Hp model, in derated mode it is rated for 1 Hp on single phase. It may be sufficient to run the lathe as is on single phase. It is a very old unit but they were over built at the time. Biggest concern would be the power supply capacitors which go with time. If you power it up on single phase, just let it sit powered for 1-2 hours before running the motor. This may reform some of the electrolytic's in the power supply. I would see if you can find a model number on the VFD which would give some more information as to ratings.

The VFD is already wired into the the control system for the lathe, by looking at the terminal connections and the VFD settings you should be able to workout what the wires are connected to/function. (i.e. For. Rev. Jog Free run etc.). You may be able to pull the programming information from the VFD if it powers up, see the manual.

The wiring control functions are very similar to other VFD's that have a common terminal and then separate inputs for the low voltage connections. It should be straight forward if you need to replace the VFD with a newer model, which would be about 1/4 the size. The Lenze SMV line has a control arrangement that is very similar to this old Baldor, I can give some more detailed recommendations if you find the the VFD needs to be replaced.

It is unclear if the speed is being adjusted with the VFD drive or it is just using to provide 60Hz 3 phase and the speed is being changed mechanically.

Picture of drive type:
View attachment 315442

Review the attached manual for the Baldor AC drive.

This is HUGE! I just wasted a solid three hours today at work looking for this manual. Actually saw this photo. Contacted ABB which now owes Baldor. They haven't gotten back to me yet. But you just knocked it out of the park. Thanks a TON!:D
 

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Thanks for all the input. Hopefully someday I can reciprocate. I have a few days of reading and digesting. I have to work on another project first then I can methodically disassemble the lathe for maintenance. I'll be posting this ensemble. For now this needs repair. 20200227_062121.jpg

Straighten the front end, run through bearings and torque converter, new breaks and cables, and build a cover for the TC.

Then the lathe
 

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LEEQ

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I was about to say that smarter people than myself helped me a lot the first time through, but here they are. This is a great community. I have learned so much with the help of HM. I'm pretty interested to see how this goes. If you find yourself looking for a new vfd and or motor might I suggest dealerselectric.com They might have a good deal or two for you. The first time around I got a teco vfd/brooke Crompton motor package for about the price of the vfd and I 'm pretty sure I also paid freight(The motor was pretty heavy.) The second time I did almost as well on a teco vfd/weg motor package. I love the fact that by buying the Teco I was able to get a bit of support from the manufacturer. That was great. I know there are other brands that do this as well. I'm no expert and I love the peace of mind. If I can't figure it out I can get help without always calling on these folks at HM.
 

mksj

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You should be able to use that VFD on single phase for this motor if the VFD powers up. The typical derating for single phase is to divide the VFD output amps by 1.5-1.7 which gives you ~4.1-4.7A derated, this is based on continuous duty at full load and a few other factors. The motor at 208-220 is 4.8A, input power to the VFD is probably 240VAC so a little more headroom. VFD's also can put out more than their rated continuous amps for short periods, and it is unlikely that the motor will be drawing full load for any length of time. So give it a try, if it was running before you purchased it, chances are good that it will work ok. You have options if it doesn't work, and should not to be too difficult to install a newer VFD if needed .
 

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After reading the manual for both the lathe and VFD. Your are correct. I'm stoked this will work of single phase. Looking over the lathe appears I was wrong in my last asumption. The hydraulics that operate the variable speed control are gone. Appears the VFD is controlling the motor speed as designed. I'll have to get VFD rewired for single phase. Test it's function. The power up the motor ever do gingerly as to not damage the VFD and tip toe into it.
This lever collet chuck appears stuck, or at least the collet is over tight in the coller. Does this lever chuck come off by way of the spindle coller? Need to get that off to get better acess to the back gear pin.
 

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wa5cab

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First, that isn't a collet chuck. It is technically a lever operated collet closer. Collet chucks attach to the spindle nose the same way as a regular chuck. I have a 5C collet chuck for my Atlas 3996. It screws onto the spindle nose.

You haven't yet shown a photo of the left end of the spindle. There are other ways of doing it but one common way to attach a lever-operated collet closer to a lathe spindle is to screw it onto the left end of the spindle using the same threads as the collar that is there on many lathes. Whether it goes on in place of or in addition to the collar depends upon how much the spindle sticks out through the collar. I think installed in place of the normal collar would be more common.

If the collet has been in the closer adapter for a long time, the collet may be stuck. Or the closer may be stuck. There should be a hollow tube a little larger on the outside diameter than the threads on a loose collet. And there should be some way to turn that tube. I would first lubricate the closer and apply penetrating oil to the OD of the collet nose. Then attempt to loosed the tube. And/or try striking the lever with a short 2X4. Although you should never leave the collet in the tightened position, it could be especially if knob twiddlers have been allowed access to the machine.
 
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Tenpounder

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First, that isn't a collet chuck. It is technically a lever operated collet closer. Collet chucks attach to the spindle nose the same way as a regular chuck. I have a 5C collet chuck for my Atlas 3996. It screws onto the spindle nose.

You haven't yet shown a photo of the left end of the spindle. There are other ways of doing it but one common way to attach a lever-operated collet closer to a lathe spindle is to screw it onto the left end of the spindle using the same threads as the collar that is there on many lathes. Whether it goes on in place of or in addition to the collar depends upon how much the spindle sticks out through the collar. I think installed in place of the normal collar would be more common.

If the collet has been in the closer adapter for a long time, the collet may be stuck. Or the closer may be stuck. There should be a hollow tube a little larger on the outside diameter than the threads on a loose collet. And there should be some way to turn that tube. I would first lubricate the closer and apply penetrating oil to the OD of the collet nose. Then attempt to loosed the tube. And/or try striking the lever with a short 2X4. Although you should never leave the collet in the tightened position, it could be especially if knob twiddlers have been allowed access to the machine.

Ahh, I see says the blind man! I have a whole department of knob twiddlers called operations at work..lol. I'll have to scrutinize the collet closer (thanks for the correction) a bit more. I have to make a spindle coller wrench to get chuck on it. Here is the best pic I have right now, I'll get some better ones this evening. I did try, unsuccessfully, to get the collet out but I need to delicately use a tool. 20200302_212750.jpg
 

brino

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Was there a power cord and connector on it?
Just wondering if it could have been configured for single -phase input already......

-brino

btw: that looks like a great lathe!
 

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Thanks Brino and yes it does have a cord but is currently wire for 3ph input. The story goes.....The seller had it powered up when I arrived, I looked over the unit,...Pause the story. Let me inform everyone right know. I am not a machinist by trade. I'm an industrial mechanic with a heavy truck/ diesel background and know just enough to get me into trouble. Continue, I made sure all the parts moved freely without a lot of slop. We had the lathe in backgear and powered it on and engaged the spindle. Let it run and ran though the back gear speed. VFD functioned correctly. Ran through the quick change gear box. Then changed the direct drive. Powered the unit up and the VFD tripped out. This might be a VFD fault or the fact that the back gear pin might not have been engaged/disengaged. Once I get it wired for single phase that will be the next investigation.
 

wa5cab

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OK. That photo confirms that the lathe is configured with a lever operated collet closer. Another photo taken from about 3 feet to the left may reveal how it was installed. But there will be a hollow tube inside the hollow spindle that is free to spin independent of the spindle. That is how you install a collet (by turning the tube to engage the collet threads, not the collet, which has a slot to engage the short key inside of the closer adapter. The additional photo may reveal what type tool fits the draw tube, although normally a tool isn't necessary.

What made me conclude that the Motor Controller (AKA VFD) was 3-phase only was that the warning on the front panel said that the supply must be connected to terminals L1, L2 and L3. Standard US Single Phase configuration doesn't have an L3 and does have a Neutral (N) which 3-Phase does not have. Both have a Ground (G, or GND) which for some reason isn't mentioned but is important.
 

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OK. That photo confirms that the lathe is configured with a lever operated collet closer. Another photo taken from about 3 feet to the left may reveal how it was installed. But there will be a hollow tube inside the hollow spindle that is free to spin independent of the spindle. That is how you install a collet (by turning the tube to engage the collet threads, not the collet, which has a slot to engage the short key inside of the closer adapter. The additional photo may reveal what type tool fits the draw tube, although normally a tool isn't necessary.

What made me conclude that the Motor Controller (AKA VFD) was 3-phase only was that the warning on the front panel said that the supply must be connected to terminals L1, L2 and L3. Standard US Single Phase configuration doesn't have an L3 and does have a Neutral (N) which 3-Phase does not have. Both have a Ground (G, or GND) which for some reason isn't mentioned but is important.

Again.... many thanks for the wisdom. I'll get better pictures this evening and play with it a bit. I thought the same thing with the VFD until MKSJ provided a manual to me. That was game changing.
 

mattthemuppet2

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I have to make a spindle coller wrench to get chuck on it.
there's a guy on Practical Machinist that makes very nice (by all accounts) LO/L1 spindle spanners for reasonable money. Might be worth checking them out - check the Tooling section, I think that's where I've seen them.
 

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Some should have just said "Hey dummy there's a key on the collet closer handle that unthreads the tube and collet" DOH! 20200304_194659.jpg

That's one win. Thanks
 

Tenpounder

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there's a guy on Practical Machinist that makes very nice (by all accounts) LO/L1 spindle spanners for reasonable money. Might be worth checking them out - check the Tooling section, I think that's where I've seen them.
Thanks I'll check PM. The spindle nut is in rough shape. Someone has drilled newer 3/8 holes to make up the trashed original holes 20200304_191653.jpg
 

mksj

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Haven't seen that style for the 5C system, the collet closer handle should release the collet.

You technically you do not need to rewire for single phase. The manual indicated that two of the power input terminals are connected for single phase, so you could power L1 with one side of 230VAC and L2/L3 wires with the other side.
 

Tenpounder

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Haven't seen that style for the 5C system, the collet closer handle should release the collet.

You technically you do not need to rewire for single phase. The manual indicated that two of the power input terminals are connected for single phase, so you could power L1 with one side of 230VAC and L2/L3 wires with the other side.

Absolutely. That's my initial intension. By rewire I mean move the locaton of the VFD. It's mounted on the back left cabinet of the lathe. Not an optimal location for maintenance.
 

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I disassemble some of the lathe. Found the gearing in good condition. Needs a cleaning and regrease. Found the clutch brake degraded. Anyone ever replace the brake material on these 5900's before? I'm considering using material from McMasterCarr. There is also a brake feature on the VFD. Not sure if the function is what I'm thinking it is though. More reading required. Found the motor loose also. Suprised that didn't contribute to some odd noise when I ran it. That will get aligned and tightened. Belts don't look terrible. 20200304_210500(0).jpg 20200304_205000.jpg 20200304_191600.jpg 20200302_212743.jpg

This tool post I found labeled made in W Germany. Anyone have info on this? I emailed the company. No response back.
 

mattthemuppet2

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looks like a multifix to me. You can get holders for reasonable money from China or originals for a lot of money from eBay. Has a lot of pluses over the standard Aloris/ Dorian style, but holders are not easily DIYable and cost more than equivalent size AXA/BXA/CXA size holders.
 
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