PM1236 gears

What do you use at the Mill?
I have a Jet 9 X 49 knee mill that I got used. It has the variable speed belt drive in two gear ranges. Slowest is 60rpm. There are 3 choices for power down. I use the slowest for power taping. I have 3 phase so I just use the motor switch to instantly revers the spindle. If I use the depth stop to kick the down feed out it will want to coast in a little deeper before it stops.

I've got a big aluminum casting I intend to make into a fixture plate. Will need to get one of the guys to help me put it on the mill. I don't have any way of sawing the part off that I don't want as part of the fixture plate so I'm going to use a roughing end mill to cut it. Working with castings is always a challenge for me. Getting some place to clamp that isn't part of the draft angle of the casting etc. I should end up with a plate 1/4" narrower than what my Kurt vice will hold when the jaws are moved to the out side by 1" thick. I don't want to have to remove the vice to use it. Still considering on what hole pattern to drill & tap. Maybe two threaded hole sizes. One to fit my smaller strap clamp set and one smaller yet for smaller parts using smaller strap clamps or wedging clamps. I'll try to photo as I go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: B2
Hi @Larry$
All the metric threads I have ever wanted except two have been available with these gears. Those two missing threads can be had +- close enough by the available gears.
Edited this post by deleting the attachment. It functioned but I had left out the metric combination 120/127 possibility in the automatic generated AllTPI tab of data. So I have fixed this and will post it shortly in a new message.



I have completed a draft of the Excel Workbook. It is attached in compressed format as it has the operational Macros in it. HM will not just let you attach and Excel workbook with macros so I hid this fact by compressing it to .zip file.

You never mentioned which metric threads you were trying to make? So I cannot search the TPI list sheet I prepared for you. See the tabs. AllTPI tab will have your lathe's results after they were sorted in increasing TPI order. Tab uwAllTPI-PM1440HD contains the same list before sorting.

Let me know what you think of it, if you think it is correct, and if you think it is useful. I put a lot of time into this for you so I hope you and others find it useful. After I get feed back from you I will remove the -draft from the sheet tab, clean up any errors etc and post it with my original posting. I added this draft to the one I provided on the PM1236 to @verbotenwhisky .

I am still a bit uncertain about how to include the feed and xfeed information on the 1440HD. Never-the-less, I tried to also provide the TPI values that would result if you were using the Feed bar to make threads.

You will find that there are a lot of possibilities that were not shown in the lathe's front panels. Maybe some of them will get close to your missing values. You might want to use the search macro. I would convert the mm threads that you are missing to Imperial numbers and search on them.

Note there is considerable redundancy and there are cases where the same gear is used at the spindle and the gear box, but you only have one gear. Sorry, about this, but you never know for sure what gears folks have nor how they will arrange them so I just tried to do all cases. One could have combinations of exchange gears other than 127/120, and if so then they can insert them into the spread sheet in a manor similar to the 127/120 locations. Likewise for any new gears you might see fit to acquire.

Good night

Dave L.
 
Last edited:
Love to have a piece of homemade bread! :)

I think I totally screwed up the guess on the x-feed gears. What I had gave me the wrong number as indicated in the tables. However, on other lathe models I commonly see poor values for the x-feed tables. This is going to take a bit longer than I though!

Power taping.... I have done a lot of mill hand tapping. Mostly 1/4-20 or 6-32. I have always wished I had that power tapping ability, but I have little control on the speed/phase of my spindle. Just a VFD into an inductive motor. I have a PM940-VS-CNC. (Spindle is gear driven not belt.) What do you use at the Mill?
I have a PM940V-PFD I Lock the PFD out and start the tap then let the tap pull the spindle down, stopping and reversing ever so often to clear chips.
 
@Larry$ @verbotenwhisky

I edited the PM1440HD-draft worksheet slightly above and deleted the attachment above.... and I am attaching the corrected version here. Still a draft. No changes to the PM1236 sheet. The PM1440HD page functioned before, but I had left out the metric combination 120/127 possibility in the automatic generated AllTPI tab of data. So I have fixed this and will post it shortly. I also cleaned up some of the overflow issues in the metric section where the lack of a x-feed yield a 1/0 calculation! You will note that the file name has changed to reflect the new, N203_1048, date/time. "TPI Many Lathes add PM1236-draft and PM1440HD-draft N203_1048 Zipped.zip"

I have a PM940V-PFD I Lock the PFD out and start the tap then let the tap pull the spindle down, stopping and reversing ever so often to clear chips.

I will have to think about this for my PM940M-VS-CNC . I have tried to let a tap pull the spindle down on my drill press, but it always failed. The return spring is too strong. One of the problems with the CNC is that the only way to manually turn off the spindle is via the computer or the E-stop which makes things a bit awkward. With the CNC I seldom use the quill. I was thinking about reversing the quill return spring to make it push down a little rather than pulling up hard. Then when ready to tap, release the quill clamp to use this force to start a tap while running the spindle slowly. It also gets rid of the strong return pulling of the tool. Reversing the motor will probably push the tap out, but might screw up the starting thread.

What I would really like to do is to put a stepper/servo motor driving the spindle and actually control everything, but this is a lot of work for a mill I am not enthusiastic about.

Dave L.
 

Attachments

  • TPI Many Lathes add PM1236-draft and PM1440HD-draft N203_1048 Zipped.zip
    2.9 MB · Views: 41
@Larry$ @verbotenwhisky

I edited the PM1440HD-draft worksheet slightly above and deleted the attachment above.... and I am attaching the corrected version here. Still a draft. No changes to the PM1236 sheet. The PM1440HD page functioned before, but I had left out the metric combination 120/127 possibility in the automatic generated AllTPI tab of data. So I have fixed this and will post it shortly. I also cleaned up some of the overflow issues in the metric section where the lack of a x-feed yield a 1/0 calculation! You will note that the file name has changed to reflect the new, N203_1048, date/time. "TPI Many Lathes add PM1236-draft and PM1440HD-draft N203_1048 Zipped.zip"



I will have to think about this for my PM940M-VS-CNC . I have tried to let a tap pull the spindle down on my drill press, but it always failed. The return spring is too strong. One of the problems with the CNC is that the only way to manually turn off the spindle is via the computer or the E-stop which makes things a bit awkward. With the CNC I seldom use the quill. I was thinking about reversing the quill return spring to make it push down a little rather than pulling up hard. Then when ready to tap, release the quill clamp to use this force to start a tap while running the spindle slowly. It also gets rid of the strong return pulling of the tool. Reversing the motor will probably push the tap out, but might screw up the starting thread.

What I would really like to do is to put a stepper/servo motor driving the spindle and actually control everything, but this is a lot of work for a mill I am not enthusiastic about.

Dave L.
I start the tap with a bit of hand fed pressure, once the threads are roughly a diameter attached it pulls the quill down. I have to hit the stop button on mine then the left then the stop then the right.... so far it has worked for me; but I have not tried it with anything smaller than a 1/4 20. I tried to use the power down feed but it caused problems because it doesn't feed at the correct speed, when the tap mannaged to tap the hole with the PDF engaged the threads were sloppy.

You have the gear head PM940M? Mine is the PM940V which drives off of a VFD and a 3 phase AC motor with a 2 position belt. Variable between 65 to 5000 RPM. What do you not like about yours?
 

Attachments

  • 20221112_001030.jpg
    20221112_001030.jpg
    257.6 KB · Views: 42
You have the gear head PM940M?
Yes, I have a PM940M-VS-CNC. It is one of the few fully CNC machines that PM sold. I am not for sure why but they did not sell them very long. I think the QC in China is poor and some machines have errors built in. Anyway, others have PM940M machines which they think are fine. Maybe the CNC versions came from somewhere else? But, not everyone is totally happy with the 940M. I have another friend who has the 940V and he did not have my problems. There is a long list of things on my machine which were done incorrectly. Some of these I have been able to correct. Others are still in the works. And yet others require considerable effort.

The VFD/motor turns the spindle between about 50-3200 rpm. I would like to go faster, but I am afraid of what it would do to the spindle bearings.

Over all I am able to use the machine and make lots of things. Maybe not as accurately as some would insist on. But most of my work does not demand great accuracy. I will not go through all of the things I have fixed or learned to live with, but here are a couple op issues.

So mine is a geared head and this is a poor design as it is too heavy for the vertical column. It has he head actually falls when you turn off the power. The CNC stepper cannot hold it unless there is power to it. So you increase the friction via the gib, but this is not good to do and causes backlash issues. Also, if the gib is not really, really, tight then the head rotates/tips (dynamic nod) as it goes up and down. I have it adjusted where there the backlash is minimized but the gib is still pretty tight. At this point if you have lowered the head and then start back up this rotation causes the tool to drop about ~ 0.001+" before it ever starts up at all. If you measure where it is suppose to be verses where it is you get a backlash of about 0.003". I actually think the head weight causes the way dovetails of the column to bow together effectively making the gib loose. I say that because if you tighten the gib to optimum when the head is in the middle of the column position (the region where the ball screw connects through the hole in the column then it is too tight to work well, or at all, when the head is all the way up or down. I plan to measure the dovetail spacing one of these days, but I need a measurement tool which will reach this distance and which will fit behind the spindle motor. I am in the process of building one. Because of all of this, for the CNC operation, I found that sometimes steps are missed in the z-axis and at the end of the process the head is lower than it is suppose to be. This was really bad when I first got the machine and I found that the gib was just poorly made and fitted even worst. It was binding. (fixed that somewhat). The best solution to this problem is to remove some or all of the head weight. Another back burner project!!

I have no idea if the dovetails are actually parallel or flat, but I found that the Y-axis dovetails are not parallel/flat at all as you move the table back and forth. It seems that the backlash in both the x and Y directions is on the scale of >0.003 and commonly worst. I was having trouble on the Y axis and when the table was the closest to the vertical column I measured the backlash and adjusted the gib to where it was tight, but not effecting the backlash. This yielded about 0.0025 to 0.003" backlash. However, I found that as I moved the table toward the front position (away from the column) the backlash went up linearly and then it just took off. I stopped the test when the backlash had reached >0.020. I was afraid I might crack the saddle! The y-axis through was reduced to about 6 inches. If I loosened the gib way up the backlash went back down to around 0.003". So I assumed that the doves tails flared apart (wider way) as the table moved away from the column. However.... I measured the ground reference surface between the dovetails a bit and found it was flat as far as I could tell. Since I did not have a way to measure the dovetail spacing yet, I measured the dept from the reference surface to the way's contact surface (were the saddle presses down on the way) using a digital dial indicator as a function of y distance. I found that this surface rose in the z direction considerably (several thousands) along the y-axis from the back to the front. This occurred on both sides of the way, but was much worst on the gib side. So I took off as much as 0.005" from this surface at the high end, and tried to taper it down as a function of y so that the surface was flat wrt the reference surface. I am not done, but because the metal is hardened it is slow going. This is a virtue as it causes me to take a lot of measurements and hopefully not over shoot. I have not even begun to work on the non-gib side. Of course, I probably need to go back and check the other side and take its highness off as well. This then leads one to ask if the x-axis nod has been changed or if it is a function of the y-position!!!? Likewise are the x-y motions perpendicular? Unknown at this point and there is no point in worrying about it much yet. However, if the y-axis dovetails were not parallel then one has to ask if this can be fixed at all. Anyway, after my working on the one side I have significantly removed the backlash and the table wobble to where I can use all of the y-axis motion. I realized that the only thing that matters is the squareness and the backlash. All the measurements and sanding of way material is to make those two things right.

Lots of other little things, like the E-stop being wired up backwards, but I will stop after these two examples.

PS. I purchased the 4th axis when I got the CNC. I do not use it much... maybe once when I was checking it out. I am thinking that if I connected it to the spindle shaft that sticks up when the quill is up.... via a pulley and disconnect the inductive motor temporally. Maybe I could write special G-code to do the powered tapping!! I could turn the tap at any speed and sync the z-axis motion. The code cannot be any harder than the threading workbook with its macros! One of these days....

Dave L.
 
Yes, I have a PM940M-VS-CNC. It is one of the few fully CNC machines that PM sold. I am not for sure why but they did not sell them very long. I think the QC in China is poor and some machines have errors built in. Anyway, others have PM940M machines which they think are fine. Maybe the CNC versions came from somewhere else? But, not everyone is totally happy with the 940M. I have another friend who has the 940V and he did not have my problems. There is a long list of things on my machine which were done incorrectly. Some of these I have been able to correct. Others are still in the works. And yet others require considerable effort.

The VFD/motor turns the spindle between about 50-3200 rpm. I would like to go faster, but I am afraid of what it would do to the spindle bearings.

Over all I am able to use the machine and make lots of things. Maybe not as accurately as some would insist on. But most of my work does not demand great accuracy. I will not go through all of the things I have fixed or learned to live with, but here are a couple op issues.

So mine is a geared head and this is a poor design as it is too heavy for the vertical column. It has he head actually falls when you turn off the power. The CNC stepper cannot hold it unless there is power to it. So you increase the friction via the gib, but this is not good to do and causes backlash issues. Also, if the gib is not really, really, tight then the head rotates/tips (dynamic nod) as it goes up and down. I have it adjusted where there the backlash is minimized but the gib is still pretty tight. At this point if you have lowered the head and then start back up this rotation causes the tool to drop about ~ 0.001+" before it ever starts up at all. If you measure where it is suppose to be verses where it is you get a backlash of about 0.003". I actually think the head weight causes the way dovetails of the column to bow together effectively making the gib loose. I say that because if you tighten the gib to optimum when the head is in the middle of the column position (the region where the ball screw connects through the hole in the column then it is too tight to work well, or at all, when the head is all the way up or down. I plan to measure the dovetail spacing one of these days, but I need a measurement tool which will reach this distance and which will fit behind the spindle motor. I am in the process of building one. Because of all of this, for the CNC operation, I found that sometimes steps are missed in the z-axis and at the end of the process the head is lower than it is suppose to be. This was really bad when I first got the machine and I found that the gib was just poorly made and fitted even worst. It was binding. (fixed that somewhat). The best solution to this problem is to remove some or all of the head weight. Another back burner project!!

I have no idea if the dovetails are actually parallel or flat, but I found that the Y-axis dovetails are not parallel/flat at all as you move the table back and forth. It seems that the backlash in both the x and Y directions is on the scale of >0.003 and commonly worst. I was having trouble on the Y axis and when the table was the closest to the vertical column I measured the backlash and adjusted the gib to where it was tight, but not effecting the backlash. This yielded about 0.0025 to 0.003" backlash. However, I found that as I moved the table toward the front position (away from the column) the backlash went up linearly and then it just took off. I stopped the test when the backlash had reached >0.020. I was afraid I might crack the saddle! The y-axis through was reduced to about 6 inches. If I loosened the gib way up the backlash went back down to around 0.003". So I assumed that the doves tails flared apart (wider way) as the table moved away from the column. However.... I measured the ground reference surface between the dovetails a bit and found it was flat as far as I could tell. Since I did not have a way to measure the dovetail spacing yet, I measured the dept from the reference surface to the way's contact surface (were the saddle presses down on the way) using a digital dial indicator as a function of y distance. I found that this surface rose in the z direction considerably (several thousands) along the y-axis from the back to the front. This occurred on both sides of the way, but was much worst on the gib side. So I took off as much as 0.005" from this surface at the high end, and tried to taper it down as a function of y so that the surface was flat wrt the reference surface. I am not done, but because the metal is hardened it is slow going. This is a virtue as it causes me to take a lot of measurements and hopefully not over shoot. I have not even begun to work on the non-gib side. Of course, I probably need to go back and check the other side and take its highness off as well. This then leads one to ask if the x-axis nod has been changed or if it is a function of the y-position!!!? Likewise are the x-y motions perpendicular? Unknown at this point and there is no point in worrying about it much yet. However, if the y-axis dovetails were not parallel then one has to ask if this can be fixed at all. Anyway, after my working on the one side I have significantly removed the backlash and the table wobble to where I can use all of the y-axis motion. I realized that the only thing that matters is the squareness and the backlash. All the measurements and sanding of way material is to make those two things right.

Lots of other little things, like the E-stop being wired up backwards, but I will stop after these two examples.

PS. I purchased the 4th axis when I got the CNC. I do not use it much... maybe once when I was checking it out. I am thinking that if I connected it to the spindle shaft that sticks up when the quill is up.... via a pulley and disconnect the inductive motor temporally. Maybe I could write special G-code to do the powered tapping!! I could turn the tap at any speed and sync the z-axis motion. The code cannot be any harder than the threading workbook with its macros! One of these days....

Dave L.
Wow, Did Mathews offer to assist with any of these issues? I understand that the quality of some of the Chinese stuff is poor but There is a point where there is poor quality and then there is bad manufacturing. Have you pulled the table and used the spindle to tram the Y ways?

I have a couple items I am going to change (Example, my DRO is mounted to the back of the machine, I intend to add a segment to the arm holding it to bring it out to the table closer to the front of the machine): and a few things I find irritating (Example, a chunky gear box for the PDF) but over all I like the machine, It is accurate and the castings and machine work are of decent quality, nothing like you are experiencing.

I originally wanted the PM940M but they could not even provide a date for getting one so I settled for a PM932M, ordered it and they kept pushing the date of arrival back. I finally asked them if they had one in rout available that I might be interested in and John said we have a PM940V-PDF sitting in the warehouse and I jumped on it, paid the extra for it and was pleased with it when it arrived.
 
there are cases where the same gear is used at the spindle and the gear box, but you only have one gear.
I can make most any gear. I've got a BS-1 and a rotary horizontal/ vertical table with even more choices because of the # of index plates. So if I'm in need some strange gear I might be able to pull it off. Duplicate gears are easy.
I'm off to the eye fixer right now so will be out of commission for a bit. I'm having the accumulated dead cells lasered off the back side of the plastic lenses. The lenses were inserted after laser burning away my natural ones a few years ago. I had cataracts so bad I couldn't read a micrometer.
Survived it! Have pretty good vision now. Procedure was quick & painless.
 
I understand that the quality of some of the Chinese stuff is poor
I was new to using a mill when I purchased the PM940M machine in 2017, so I did not even know how good a machine was suppose to be nor did I really understand what to look for. Took me the better part of a year just to get it installed. By the time I became serious about it I was pretty far along in the warranty if it was not completely exhausted. Anyway, I mentioned some of this to Matt, especially about the head falling and how I thought the gib was bad. He offered to make me a new gib, but needed dimensions, which I did not have. (I certainly did not want to make the same one over as it was poorly made, too thin, and was too short. Anyway, Matt, reads most of the PM form when he has time. So he knows almost everything we work on!

I live in Pittsburgh and PM is not very far from my home. So I have been there many times. They have always been good to me and helpful, I like Matt and the guys and I want to help keep them in business. This was no small part of my decision when I first started buying the equipment to go down the machining road. Anyway, replacing it or even the major parts might be an issue since the CNC version is somewhat different. I do not actually know if the basic mill parts are the same and a 940M. The do look the same but.... I am pretty sure the lead screws etc. are different. Then there is the issue that I had to actually take the mill apart to some degree to get it into my basement shop room an it just fits. So taking it back apart is not something that I really want to do. I am a physicist and electrical engineer (both in theory and experiment) and worked in industrial R&D for 16 years before I moved on to be a university professor ... and have been around a long time (read that old) getting experience in lots of things ... and so will figure it all out or just get tired of trying and quit or buy something else. I would really prefer to have a CNC knee mill, but I have yet to see an add for one, let alone one, that would fit in my walkout basement. The reason I originally purchased a mill was that I was developing a very special very high resolution magneto-optical microscope for measuring some thin film magnetic materials... and needed to get rid of (remake out of non-magnetic materials) all of the ferromagnetic parts of a standard microscope. I made a lot of it by hand or with my old SouthBend lathe, but I needed more than just hand tools and finger nails for making some of the parts. Because I was using magnetic fields the ferromagnetic parts in the microscope would tend to move or bend and screw up the optical paths.

Did you have any questions about, or even get a chance yet to look at, the PM1236 Excel TPI workbook I set up for you? You don't want to take too long ... I WILL forget what I did in making it for you. I won't have access to the HM form next week so you have some time. You can just check through the AllTPI table I generated for you and see if you find any errors in the TPI, feed or xfeed arrangement values, at least the ones that you know. Also, the metric values maybe off as I did not spend much time worrying about those. Generating the TPI using the lead screw is pretty straight forward. Also, the feed. But where I may mess up is when I generate the TPI values using the feel movement. The spread sheet has a bunch of IF conditions and it is easy to get some of them wrong. Like I said before the Feed and XFeed values listed on the lathe plates are commonly inaccurate or just wrong. It is kind of hard to even measure the feed or xfeed per turn and get it it accurate to better than on or two digits. On my lathe I have a 1/10 turn digital counter on my spindle and a DRO and I can run many inches of travel to get thousands of 1/10th turn counts to generate the measurement. I do not know if you saw my posting about the counter and the VFD conversion. Here are a couple of posting links.

VFD conversion using solid state electronic components.
adding a counter to my VFD converted PM1440GT.

Gcode generated Instrument Panel
Another project using the backer board that I built for my lathe VFD conversion is the RMP Hall Effect magnet holder.

Good night,


Dave L.
 
Hi @Larry$

I'm having the accumulated dead cells lasered off the back side of the plastic lenses. The lenses were inserted after laser burning away my natural ones a few years ago. I had cataracts so bad I couldn't read a micrometer.

Wow, I had not heard of that "accumulated dead cells" happening to folks with cataracts replacement lenses. They do not put that in the advertisements for the cataracts surgery!

What kind of work were you doing that you laser burn your eye lenses. I have worked with lasers a lot. You must have been using a CO2 or other IR laser? The visible wavelength lasers go right through the lens and destroy the retina, not the lens... unless your cataracts were really absorbing the light a lot.

Good luck with your procedure.

Dave L.
 
Back
Top