Tightening up a screwless vise

[DavidR8]

Ah! Looks like Orange stopped selling standard vices and are just CNC vices now. So they are insanely expensive. Kurt seems to have done the same thing in 4" vises. Glacern at least has their 'standard' vise for only $350.

Its nuts to me that the 4" vises are now more expensive than the 6" kurt!

I noticed the same thing. I can’t figure out why as demand tends to drive pricing.


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[DavidR8]

Looking at the options here:

https://www.mscdirect.com/industrialtools/kurt-4-inch-vises.html

a basic Kurt vise 4" wide, 6.5" jaw opening seems relatively affordable at $653.73:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/30980429

But with various options, the 4" Kurts get a lot pricier than that.

If my priority is to go with something I'm going to be happy with over the long term, which 4" Kurt should I be looking at for my LMS 5550/Sieg x2.7?

If Kurt is your choice then this would be the one I would think.

Kurt DX4 CrossOver® Vise

The revolutionary DX4™ CrossOver® Vise combines all the great features of the world-renowned KURT D40 and 3400V vises, along with new state-of-the-art workholding features.

www.kurtworkholding.com

I was given the advice to be aware of the overall height of the vise as vertical travel is a precious commodity in bench mills. Looks like your mill has around 13” of z-axis travel. The top of the Kurt is 3.365” off the table so I think you basically lose that height from your z-axis travel.

The 4” Glacern is basically the same dimensions.


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[Frank O]

If Kurt is your choice then this would be the one I would think.

Kurt DX4 CrossOver® Vise

The revolutionary DX4™ CrossOver® Vise combines all the great features of the world-renowned KURT D40 and 3400V vises, along with new state-of-the-art workholding features.

www.kurtworkholding.com

I was given the advice to be aware of the overall height of the vise as vertical travel is a precious commodity in bench mills. Looks like your mill has around 13” of z-axis travel. The top of the Kurt is 3.365” off the table so I think you basically lose that height from your z-axis travel.

The 4” Glacern is basically the same dimensions.

Thanks!

I see that Kurt recommends these accessories for the DX4:

Kurt DJ4 Starter Kit

The Starter Kit includes 2 master jaws, 2 - 4"aluminum jaws, 4 cap screw (English) 1 T-handle hex key. This starter kit is for a 4" wide Kurt vise.

www.kurtworkholding.com

and

Kurt Key, Sine, 3/4 X 13/16 IN

2 pieces of a Non-expandable O-Ring Style (English) sold in pairs.

www.kurtworkholding.com

or

Kurt Key, Sine, 1/2 X 9/16 IN

2 pieces of a Non-expandable O-Ring Style (English) sold in pairs.

www.kurtworkholding.com

On the starter kit, how useful or necessary are those items?

On the sine keys, I gather these are to hold the vise on the table. For most fixtures like my little screwless vise I've gotten away with the 3/8"-16 clamping kit for 7/16" T-slots that I bought when I got my first mini-mill. That's not going to cut it with a Kurt? Not sure if either of the sine key sets mentioned on the Kurt website would even fit my 5550 mill.

 

[ErichKeane]

The sine keys are to make lining the vice up on the table easier. You put them in the bottom of the vice, and they go into your table slots. The hope is that they would just automatically line up. I didn't find that to be the case. With as rarely as I pull/place my vice, the extra 5 minutes of tramming my vice made them not really worth it.

With the starter kit: I think it is probably overpriced at $200. You can either make or get aluminum vice jaws cheaply/easily (~$30), and the t-handle key + cap screws is probably another $10 of value. The master jaws are INTERESTING, but only save you time when you swap jaws often. I think I've swapped mine 3x in 4 years.

 

[mikey]

You might want to watch Kurt's Scratch and Dent offerings. They sell vises with minor cosmetic defects that don't affect the function of the vise for much lower prices. If the price is too stiff even with that the go for a Glacern. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

I wouldn't opt for the "recommended" accessories unless they fill a specific need.

 

[Frank O]

You might want to watch Kurt's Scratch and Dent offerings. They sell vises with minor cosmetic defects that don't affect the function of the vise for much lower prices. If the price is too stiff even with that the go for a Glacern. I doubt you'll be disappointed.

I wouldn't opt for the "recommended" accessories unless they fill a specific need.

Thanks. I looked around, and the best price I could find on a new Kurt DX4 is from All Industrial, which is about 30 miles from me. So I might give them a call in the morning to see if they have them in stock.

 

[ThinWoodsman]

The sine keys are to make lining the vice up on the table easier. You put them in the bottom of the vice, and they go into your table slots. The hope is that they would just automatically line up. I didn't find that to be the case. With as rarely as I pull/place my vice, the extra 5 minutes of tramming my vice made them not really worth it.

I used dowel pins, as eighty bucks for the vise keys is beyond absurd. Don't remember the size, can measure if need be. Just get ones from McMaster that are the diameter of the hole in the vise, and size them about 1/4" less than the depth of the vise hole + depth of the table T-slots.

 

[ericc]

My horizontal mill has a cheesy homemade vise. I think it still has the torch cuts on it. I even think a homemade vise out of aluminum would be better, but the cheesy one seems to have done the job so far. A lot of my work involves clamped setups, anyway.

 

[Dabbler]

I own a Kurt DX6 and a clone of the Kurt 633 made in Taiwan... There is no easily measurable deflection difference when clamping.

-- it is very important to say that most people clamp *way too hard*. If you use an 18" Johnson bar to close your vise, there will be deflection and you can measure it. I usually use a 7" 3/4 ratcheting box end wrench to tighten with. What is too hard or hard enough is a function of your feeding speed, spindle HP, cutter design and diameter, and toughness of the material. Way too much for this thread.

My point is, is that the Glacern 4" will easily be more than rigid enough for a bench mill. He will be very happy with it. A Kurt 4" is a very nice-to-have, but not a strong need.

 

[Frank O]

it is very important to say that most people clamp *way too hard*. If you use an 18" Johnson bar to close your vise, there will be deflection and you can measure it. I usually use a 7" 3/4 ratcheting box end wrench to tighten with. What is too hard or hard enough is a function of your feeding speed, spindle HP, cutter design and diameter, and toughness of the material. Way too much for this thread.

Good point. I'm used to working with things where everytime a bolt is tightened, there's a spec for torque. Obviously as you say there will be a lot of different factors that will influence how tightly to close the vise. I'll definitely shoot for "just enough."