What Is A ==========

Long version.
The Seat of the pants guy is the one that is more than a simple machinist. He's an engineer of sorts. He's the guy that you show a problem to that needs an electro-mechanical solution to and he ponders it for a while. He scratches out some designs and math on a napkin at lunch and then he builds the solution, from scratch that not only addresses the problem but runs for 40 years with only minimal maintenance.

Short version.
Master Gunsmith.
Master gunsmith is the gunsmith that you take a 100yr old firearm to that they made 10 of, by hand, without plans or drawings and he replaces and repairs the mechanics of it returning it to proper operation. His tools are typically one of one things that anyone else would look at and have no idea what they were even for and probably scrap them. He SEE's the mechanics in operation in his head of how it all works, fits together and the required tolerances for it to be accurate. I know alot of guys speak of accuracy. Consider that we measure angles in degrees. Gunsmiths work in minutes of angle, meaning 1/60 of a degree. To draw that out, its a 1 inch deflection at 300 feet of distance or to really make the point 10 inches in 3000 feet.

I realize that the short version is longer than the long one, but I believe it required the explanation.
But I think the whole point of this is that anyone that can stuff a chunk of metal in a CNC lathe or mill and write 100 lines of G-Code is technically a machinist. He's a bit more than a machine operator but he's still not knowledgeable enough to create a complex machine from scratch.
Now the reasons to have that guy around, the seat of the pants guy, is to fix problems. The hard truth is this, a room full of guys that are experts at running their CNC machines, are still in a sense machine operators. They may be able to product every single part of a mechanical device with their machines, but they don't necessarily have the ability to design those parts, just produce them from a print. The seat of the pants guy can product it, see that the design is wrong on tolerance, correct it, and the part that it mates to. In addition he will see the three other design modifications required to make the machine have a 20 yr life span instead of a 2 yr one that the original design would have created. I guess it's coupled to aptitude. Some folks have a knack for mechanical things, some don't.
 
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/\/\/\/\ I was trying to explain to a friend why he would want to be a machinist, rather than getting his gunsmith degree. He is quite inventive and likes firearms, though he is all over the place with ideas.

Finally found a "correspondance school" that had both programs listed. Gunsmith, $895. Machinist, $16,875. He looked through both programs, what they offer.

Now he wants to be a machinist. :grin:
 
I had to laugh when I saw this, because I will often go to the young guys in the shop when an issues is going on and say, "Well, lets try my seat of the pants process and see what happens, then go from there." Another kid used to ask, "How do you know,...Oh yeah, 35 years, right?" I have been doing this for almost 40 years now and still love it. Love to teach young guys some of the old tricks. Some get it, some don't, some think I'm just the old guy. But when the I see the wheels turning in a young guys head about a method or suggestion, that is when it is even funner!
Reading another post about a gunsmith, I taught st a vo-tech that had gunsmith classes. Oh my, those guys thought they were just as good as a machinist. Some very sketchy set ups and they looked at me like I was from another planet. Went round and round with a couple. They did not come into the shop area after that!
 
The issue and expense of being a gunsmith is the legal aspect of it. You about have to have a degree in firearms law in order to be a gunsmith. There are issues with storage, transfers, documentation and interaction witb the ATF that significantly complicate things. The mechanical aspects of the job are a bit different as well. A gunsmith has to also be a master craftsman of wood to do stock work as well as an accomplished smith. Many folks find that due to the draconian regulations and paper trail that is required of a gunsmith that its easier to take a different path and only work on their own firearms. In truth, aomething as simple as assembling an AR-15 from a stripped lower for a friend requires a manufactures FFL And doing said work for someone without the required FFL can land you in a federal prison. And if you arent aware assembling on of those rifles can be done with a 5 page instruction sheet and mostly basic hand tools.
 
The issue and expense of being a gunsmith is the legal aspect of it. You about have to have a degree in firearms law in order to be a gunsmith. There are issues with storage, transfers, documentation and interaction witb the ATF that significantly complicate things. The mechanical aspects of the job are a bit different as well. A gunsmith has to also be a master craftsman of wood to do stock work as well as an accomplished smith. Many folks find that due to the draconian regulations and paper trail that is required of a gunsmith that its easier to take a different path and only work on their own firearms. In truth, aomething as simple as assembling an AR-15 from a stripped lower for a friend requires a manufactures FFL And doing said work for someone without the required FFL can land you in a federal prison. And if you arent aware assembling on of those rifles can be done with a 5 page instruction sheet and mostly basic hand tools.


I gave up being a gunsmith years ago, it was no longer enjoyable with all the regulations. Secondly I found out that I am not very good at public relations with people that think they are firearms experts. My hat is off to those that still do it.
 
SOTP machinists I find from the culture I was born into are born not made, Also this mechanical instinct is nurtured by being in a manufacturing culture, The old Glasgow & West of Scotland engineering towns had these guys in past times in the thousands, O.K. they moaned about the deck of cards life had given them, but they could when the chips were down , and the firms back was to the wall rally round and many a home spun cure was pulled out of the hat, and production was soon back to normal. The same went for for many of the everyday miracles carried out every day production tasks as they came around The built up knowledge was in a subliminal way passed to the younger workers who had the sense to apply their brains and observe these old buzzards.

The same sort of manufacturing craftsman could be found all over the world, ranging from the rest of the U.K. & further afield from Budapest to Cincinnati, & Canada etc., Sadly the change over from a "Making Culture", to a" Paper Shuffling and Financial Sector" which now hold sway, has decimated much that was beneficial to our culture . How will the thought process which engendered such God given instinctive problem solving ever return big time if our backs are to the wall And would future generations want to be part of such a culture?
 
Todays Flying by the Seat of the Pants job that was to big for the machine
1 Remove Gap
2 Install faceplate
3 Turn pilot to center 3 jaw to faceplate (on another lathe)
4 Bolt chuck to faceplate
5 Have one of the guys that run a mill make soft jaws from 2 X 3 1018 bar stock 10" long
6 Weld pads to jaws
7 Turn the toolpost so that the dovetail is on the operators side
8 I then turned a shallow pocket in the jaws at the minimum diameter that the tool would reach, chucked a piece of 9" Dia. tubing and turned the ID to set the dro X dimension.
9 Chuck a disk on the inside of the jaws to hold them whilst turning
10 Turn a 28" Dia X 3/8" deep pocket in the jaws
11 Weld a hook (I also do the welding in this shop) onto the OD of the part so that I can lift it with the hoist into the chuck, the blank is just over 200 Lb's and is plasma/laser cut 304 SS from plate
12 Chuck part and cut hook off with an abrasive disk in a die grinder
13 Turn boring bar upsidedown, run spindle in reverse to turn slightly more then 1/2 of the thickness. It is a fairly stout 2 1/2" round bar.
14 Reset the tool height because it is now upsidedown
15 Take a cut until it cleans up, dig out the 40" Mitutoyo vernier caliper, measure the OD and set the dro X axis dimension. This is where I left it today, will begin again tomorrow morning, the finished OD is 27.500 ± .015, 15 man hours of setup so far, for 1 part.
The reason that I bolted a chuck to a faceplate is that we do not have a 4 jaw large enough and the largest one does not have 2 piece jaws so I couldn't use soft jaws. The 15" 3 jaw was not meant for use on this lathe so I had to improvise. The reason that I am using a boring bar upside down is that the part is only 1" thick and the gap is 12-14" wide, reaching the part without running the carriage into the gap demanded it, the chuck on the faceplate also gets the part closer to the tool over the gap. I also pushed a live center from the tailstock against the face to make sure that it stays in the shallow jaw pocket during OD roughing.
faceplate_zps94eabuwc.jpg
part_zpsmmviqzps.jpg
boringbar_zps8wnpgoep.jpg
caliper_zpsj0jpelho.jpg

faceplate_zps94eabuwc.jpg

part_zpsmmviqzps.jpg

boringbar_zps8wnpgoep.jpg

caliper_zpsj0jpelho.jpg
 
WOW !!!!!!!!! Impressive set-up.

"Billy G"
 
Thanks Billy, it remains to be seen if I can actually make the finished part, it has a 3/16 O-Ring groove on the face with a 24 3/16" OD, have yet to deal with getting the face groove tool close enough to the part without running into the gap, this shall be another milling machine job, making a "Tool Extension Tool" for the face tool. The time estimate is 28+ hours, this will not be nearly enough time.

As a side note, Kaiser Thin Bit grooving tools work a charm, a bit pricey for the hobbyist I suspect. I have no affiliation with Kaiser tooling, I am just a machinist using my employers tools.
 
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