Grizzly G5963 Surface Grinder (6 x 12), is it worth it and can it hold tolerances < 1 tenth?

[jwmay]

Interesting strategy. Don't know anyone to borrow that large sum of investment.

I will spend some time there and see what goes on, might be able to buy a knee mill & lathe in good shape with tooling.
Have any recommendations which forums catered on buying small shops shutting down?

I didn’t say there are forums dedicated to professional machine shops selling out. I said there are professional machining forums.

Banks loan money in large amounts.

 

[SouthernChap]

Plan on to start a business after I have gained some experience in working with machines in my basement shop.

I never touched a surface grinder but I'm a quick learner, I will practice making parallels to holds sub-tenths and then start making parts.

Ah so you have experience in CAD and 3D printing but no experience in machining.

I'm an utter rank beginner in machining myself (I'm a software engineer professionally) so I may well be very wrong but I'd say you've got a fair learning journey ahead of you before surface grinder use.

From what you say, all machining is a relatively undiscovered country for you. Now honestly, you're at the start of a fantastic journey and I suspect you'll love every moment of it (maybe through gritted teeth at times ) so I'd say don't rush ahead too much.

Take your time and enjoy discovering that you can actually achieve a lot with just a lathe, a bench grinder, a good drill press, decent metrology kit, abrasives and of course hand tools like files and hacksaws. Delight in learning the basics.

Then, when you find that your learning and wonder becomes limited by your kit, get yourself a mill.

Or, if you prefer, take the above two paragraphs and swap the words 'mill' and 'lathe' and do it in that order (although, it should be noted that you can do some milling operations on a lathe, it just takes some ingenuity, or with less ingenuity and a milling attachment, but you'll run out of work room with a milling attachment at some point).

Only after that consider starting a business and even only then, after you've satisfied yourself that you can meet your likely customers requirements with the quality they deserve, and in a timely fashion.

There's a lot to learn, even for a fast learner, and the learning is what, for most people brings the joy.

Don't try to shortcut the learning journey or you'll do yourself a disfavour and likely any customers you get initially.

There, that's my advice, for what it's worth.

All that said, If stock in your young but insanely growing newly floated company makes the headlines in a couple of years time I will feel suitably stupid!

 

[Larry$]

I plan to start slow and low at my basement.

Have you considered what it would take to move a surface grinder into your basement?
It is possible to start a business on the cheap. Do you have a product that you think you can make & sell or are you planning on being a job shop?
If it is producing a product, how are you going to market it? What prevents the next guy from copying it and making it cheaper?
If it is to be a job shop what skills do you bring that would make someone want to use use you rather than all the other job shops that have established themselves as providing good service doing repairs or perhaps short runs? You must have a product that requires high precision parts or you wouldn't be talking about surface grinding to those specs. In addition to the machines you've listed you must also have a means of powering them with 3 phase. Rare in US homes so you are looking at a converter? Electrical, DIY 3 phase or hiring an electrician?

In developing my own business I sometimes bought used equipment, got burned a couple of times and learned to buy only things that had excellent factory support. It costs several thousand $ to have a tech fly in to service complex machines. I spent $101,000 for a used saw to cut particle board, by the time it was installed, hooked to power, air and the server + software I had another $15K into it. The main job I bought it for dried up as the company suddenly quit expanding. Schelling makes great saws but they need to be fed lots of work to justify their cost.
Plan ahead! But it is still a risky bet. BTW I sometimes had to borrow $. They always wanted everything I owned as collateral, house, car, kids....

 

[matthewsx]

Thanks for the reply.

I have experience in multiple CADs and 3D printing, want to get into the actual machining.

For decent lathe, which do you recommend?

I consider a good hobby size machine to be in the 12x36 range. Accuracy will mainly come from the operator so anything that's mechanically sound should work. You'll want a QCGB so probably not a very old machine, I have a 1980's Taiwan built 12x36 that I bought used for $800 but I don't know what's available where you are. Grizzly and Precision Matthews offer new machines that will also fit the bill at reasonable prices.

As stated in your other thread, if you can find a well cared for machine from a hobbyist or one man shop with included tooling that will be your best value. Post whatever you find on this forum and you'll get an honest opinion from lots of folks here. Pictures help a lot....

Since it sounds like you're just starting, and don't yet have a solid list of projects I'm pretty confident saying starting out with a lathe and learning how to grind HSS bits will serve you well. It'll likely take a little while before you can hit the dimensions you want and be happy with the surface finish. Once you get that down, going to any other machine will be easier.

John

 

[Unix]

Have you considered what it would take to move a surface grinder into your basement?
It is possible to start a business on the cheap. Do you have a product that you think you can make & sell or are you planning on being a job shop?
If it is producing a product, how are you going to market it? What prevents the next guy from copying it and making it cheaper?
If it is to be a job shop what skills do you bring that would make someone want to use use you rather than all the other job shops that have established themselves as providing good service doing repairs or perhaps short runs? You must have a product that requires high precision parts or you wouldn't be talking about surface grinding to those specs. In addition to the machines you've listed you must also have a means of powering them with 3 phase. Rare in US homes so you are looking at a converter? Electrical, DIY 3 phase or hiring an electrician?

In developing my own business I sometimes bought used equipment, got burned a couple of times and learned to buy only things that had excellent factory support. It costs several thousand $ to have a tech fly in to service complex machines. I spent $101,000 for a used saw to cut particle board, by the time it was installed, hooked to power, air and the server + software I had another $15K into it. The main job I bought it for dried up as the company suddenly quit expanding. Schelling makes great saws but they need to be fed lots of work to justify their cost.
Plan ahead! But it is still a risky bet. BTW I sometimes had to borrow $. They always wanted everything I owned as collateral, house, car, kids....

Thanks for the reply.

I first put thought on how to move the heavy ton machines into the basement before considering which particular machines to obtain.
I have concluded with certainty that it can be done without much great effort using this method, my basement is similar in nature:

Good to hear that it is possible to start a business on the cheap, I have bought many used high quality items off of eBay and craigslist, all of them are good experience and was never a 100% potato/loss. Just last week I bought a used Summit washing machine from craigslist for $150 which originally costs $1,500, the machine looks brand new and works great as expected but does acts weird when drying and something I can fix when I have time.

I have about hundreds of items to produce and sell, everything are mostly for niche businesses, few companies are in the business to produce them here in USA.
One of the many example in my list are in the research/labs sector, such as Klein Flansch or known as KF Flange, not much competition in this niche and there are great demand for it here.
Expensive to buy these parts, depending where you get them from. If needed I can break even by selling them cheaply.
Also I want to make KF Flanges in many different forms, not just the ordinary ones, create a catalog, make parts that are rare such as glass-to-metal KF Flanges which are tricky to find, so that it can now be easily bought off of Amazon/eBay for customers.
These parts I plan to make can only be bought by specialized companies who never directly sells them and requires a MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity).

95% of the work I will be doing are making and selling on platforms such as in: Shopify + Amazon + eBay + Etsy.
I have taken numerous marketing courses and did business in all of those platforms, give me a niche product and I can sell it.

5% Job shop work, happens when customers asks me to make a product I make and sell, to suit their exact needs.
From experience, the best secret to any business is consistency of doing business.

Also KF Flange is just one small category example of the hundred of niche products I want to make.
Surface grinders comes into play for example making the best and precise fixtures plates used in labs which uses them commonly.
I'll buy a 3-Phase VFD converter which can take single phase, I sometimes do electrical work, I'll call in an electrician if I'm working anything over 220 volts from the main panel, don't want arc flashing risking on me.

Yikes, $116K for a saw... you make cabinets?

I consider a good hobby size machine to be in the 12x36 range. Accuracy will mainly come from the operator so anything that's mechanically sound should work. You'll want a QCGB so probably not a very old machine, I have a 1980's Taiwan built 12x36 that I bought used for $800 but I don't know what's available where you are. Grizzly and Precision Matthews offer new machines that will also fit the bill at reasonable prices.

As stated in your other thread, if you can find a well cared for machine from a hobbyist or one man shop with included tooling that will be your best value. Post whatever you find on this forum and you'll get an honest opinion from lots of folks here. Pictures help a lot....

Since it sounds like you're just starting, and don't yet have a solid list of projects I'm pretty confident saying starting out with a lathe and learning how to grind HSS bits will serve you well. It'll likely take a little while before you can hit the dimensions you want and be happy with the surface finish. Once you get that down, going to any other machine will be easier.

John

Thanks for the reply.

I will keep this noted, look for at least a 12 x 25 lathe.
As for QCGB, I aim to convert the lathe to CNC.

Used Taiwan lathe for $800? Lucky you.

Thank You, I will post links and get feedback, will provide many pictures.
I agree, starting out with a lathe first is the way to begin machining.

 

[Larry$]

you make cabinets?

We did commercial interiors. Never residencial. Chain stores, medical facilities, parts for manufactures, conference rooms, lots of curved work. The CNC saw could cut stacks of parts, kerf sheets to allow them to be bent, cut openings out of the center of panels all running on CNC from the office server. Parts customers would sometimes come in to certify the saw to maintain their specifications. One would bring electronic measuring equipment to certify repetitive cuts. The saw had two blades the first one put a shallow kerf in the bottom of the panels so the main blade wouldn't cause chip outs as it exited. Cutting speed was around a meter a second. Only once did it ever bog down, cutting 3" thick sheets of UHMW for the railroad. That stuff would pinch the blade. We routed it into tool trays to hold the specialty tools for working on the engines. 3/4" O flute router bit would make massive amounts of shavings flying everywhere. We cut bundle boards for a printing company. 6000 at a time. The shop was conveyorized and mostly CNC. Not what most people think of when you say woodworking.
I spent a lot of time flying to job sites all over the country to photo, measure and solve problems that came up. Two or 3 flights a month, got to hating airports & security lines, getting stranded someplace over night because the flights were late and missed the last flight of the day. I could write a book about what to know about flying for business and all the things occasional fliers don't know. It would be titled "Not Again!"
Each state or city has different regulations and tax systems. California & NY city were horrid. The ins & outs of shipping is something you have to learn to survive. It's cheaper to get a full semi trailer than to ship much by common carrier. Container shipping out of the country is surprisingly cheap but takes special paperwork handling. Lots to learn s you get into the business end of things.

 

[durableoreo]

Don’t buy a single phase hobby machine to run a business with.

$10k isn’t nearly enough.

You've got to start somewhere. The bootstrap phase is different from tooling up a factory. Get what you can and modify your designs to match your machines and skill level.

10k is enough to start. Keep track of expenses---you'll be shocked at the cumulative price of starting a manufacturing business. Build it a little at a time. Get a product out there ASAP. There's no way to learning except by doing. Also, make sure you keep good books. Not even the best accountant can help you unless you have good records. Boring but important.

 

[Unix]

We did commercial interiors. Never residencial. Chain stores, medical facilities, parts for manufactures, conference rooms, lots of curved work. The CNC saw could cut stacks of parts, kerf sheets to allow them to be bent, cut openings out of the center of panels all running on CNC from the office server. Parts customers would sometimes come in to certify the saw to maintain their specifications. One would bring electronic measuring equipment to certify repetitive cuts. The saw had two blades the first one put a shallow kerf in the bottom of the panels so the main blade wouldn't cause chip outs as it exited. Cutting speed was around a meter a second. Only once did it ever bog down, cutting 3" thick sheets of UHMW for the railroad. That stuff would pinch the blade. We routed it into tool trays to hold the specialty tools for working on the engines. 3/4" O flute router bit would make massive amounts of shavings flying everywhere. We cut bundle boards for a printing company. 6000 at a time. The shop was conveyorized and mostly CNC. Not what most people think of when you say woodworking.
I spent a lot of time flying to job sites all over the country to photo, measure and solve problems that came up. Two or 3 flights a month, got to hating airports & security lines, getting stranded someplace over night because the flights were late and missed the last flight of the day. I could write a book about what to know about flying for business and all the things occasional fliers don't know. It would be titled "Not Again!"
Each state or city has different regulations and tax systems. California & NY city were horrid. The ins & outs of shipping is something you have to learn to survive. It's cheaper to get a full semi trailer than to ship much by common carrier. Container shipping out of the country is surprisingly cheap but takes special paperwork handling. Lots to learn s you get into the business end of things.

This is factually an interesting work life. As for the book, please do so, it is a very unique experience anyone can read and think about in business.
Do you think it would be better off if you hired someone to do all of the photo taking and measuring at job sites? I think this way you can focus more on the company's workflow and quality control. I agree planes rides eventually gets annoying, unless you have your own private jet. You basically run a woodworking factory. Curious for such large saw CNC, what kind of tolerance can it hold? Does it operate in using rack and pinon?

 

[Unix]

You've got to start somewhere. The bootstrap phase is different from tooling up a factory. Get what you can and modify your designs to match your machines and skill level.

10k is enough to start. Keep track of expenses---you'll be shocked at the cumulative price of starting a manufacturing business. Build it a little at a time. Get a product out there ASAP. There's no way to learning except by doing. Also, make sure you keep good books. Not even the best accountant can help you unless you have good records. Boring but important.

Thank you.

 

[Larry$]

Do you think it would be better off if you hired someone to do all of the photo taking and measuring at job sites?

A hire would need to know what was called for and what could be done to modify it in case there were jobsite issues. Then work out with the contractor, architect and customer as to what the solution would be. Things that came up: walls put in the wrong side of the line, air handling ducts and their grills in places where the installed casework was to be placed, changes in ceiling ht. in remodels because they didn't know where the utilities were. Architects' drawings didn't conform to code and changes were made W/O letting us know. Customer changed their mind when the saw what the space actually looked like after the walls were in place and had changes made. Job was behind schedule and part of it had to be in place before school started or the like, the rest of the casework was going to be shipped later or be placed into storage. The catch to all this was what it did to our manufacturing schedules.

what kind of tolerance can it hold? Does it operate in using rack and pinon?

I no longer remember the tolerances it would maintain. We would calibrate at each change of blades by programing cutting 10, 2" pieces. Stacking them and measuring the stack with an electronic caliper. I no longer remember what we typically allowed. It was way better than necessary given that wood based things are subject to constant movement with changes in humidity. There was a rack & pinion on each end of the pusher shaft that moved the panels over a distance of about 14'± It could cut 14'±. A unit of material would be loaded onto the scissors lift. The operator would manually push the panels onto the air floatation table, against the feed beam. Push the cycle start button. The saw would grab the stack & pull it back into the saw. Then clamp the panels tight to the table and cut. Trim cuts were always programed. After all rip cuts were complete the operator would spin the work on the floatation tables and put it against the fence. Press cycle start and the saw would press the work tight against the side fence, pull it back into the saw and go through the clamp cut cycles until it reached the end of the program. There were internal programs that could be used if the panels had internal stresses. In that case the saw would automatically select a part cut near the cent of the pattern. It would start the cut inside of the panel and stop it before reaching the end of the panel . The stress relief cut would allow the panel to bow into or away from that cut. The saw would then continue the program but make allowance for the movement and still make the panels the correct size. These saws can be equipped with options to fully automate the process but you'd better have a serious budget.