VN Is this a good fit for my first mill?

John TV,
Unless the price is silly, this should be a done deal. If you decide to pass please let me know.

Also, give a shout if you want a hand moving her.
Depending on the pick up location and destination it'll cost you a coffee and sandwich.
I'm no longer spry, young and/or muscular. But that's what mechanical advantage is for!
Do you have a suitable truck & trailer?
I've got skates and pipes and levers.
I'd take the motor, overarm, support, and vise off.
But, leave the head and table, carriage and knee in place.
Unless you plan to tear her down anyway, and even then it's nice to have the control of a shop vs a driveway.

Daryl
MN
 
Uglydog said:
John TV,
Unless the price is silly, this should be a done deal. If you decide to pass please let me know.

Also, give a shout if you want a hand moving her.
Depending on the pick up location and destination it'll cost you a coffee and sandwich.
I'm no longer spry, young and/or muscular. But that's what mechanical advantage is for!
Do you have a suitable truck & trailer?
I've got skates and pipes and levers.
I'd take the motor, overarm, support, and vise off.
But, leave the head and table, carriage and knee in place.
Unless you plan to tear her down anyway, and even then it's nice to have the control of a shop vs a driveway.

Daryl
MN
Click to expand...

Wow, hard to refuse that offer Daryl, thank you. Still working on finalizing deal since everyone is out of town yet. The location is 40 miles south of metro. I'm working on other logistics now. I have a vehicle capable of pulling a trailer but don't have a truck. Thinking of renting one of those scissor lift trailers. Once the deal is done if the offer still stands I would love your help and expertise. Need a couple of weeks just to let this new snow melt. Ps do you still have those collets for a Logan for sale?


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Please PM me for my phone number, we can chat about the various strategies and pros/cons. Ultimately I'd like to see three plans before we deploy.
Please call me before you rent a trailer. We've got lots of options. Renting a trailer may be the best, but then not necessarily.
I recall getting help on my first real machine tool. This is just another payment of my efforts to pay off that debt.

And don't try to get me to drink of those Starbou coffees!
I want the real stuff that you get from the gas station. You know the stuff with coffee chunks that stick in your teeth like swarf.

Sold the Logan and all the parts.

Daryl
MN
 
Daryl, please. Real men always carry seizing wire to floss the coffee swarf out of their teeth afterwards. Used to do it all the time. :confused 3:

Glenn
 
Mine is a no24 - all 4300 pounds. Came on a truck. I had a 5000 pound forklift standing by & used a few 1.5" bars to shove it in place. Now a 10 ton porta power was needed to get it flat on the ground though.
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Just be sure to outline the challenges & provide adequate solutions before you take delivery.
 
AVN12 should weigh in at 1650#net (http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2109/3402.pdf) without motor.
Assuming no stairs a drop deck or tilt trailer work very nicely.
However, there are other options. Renting a fork gets expensive. Fortunatly the VN12 isn't as heavy as the VN24!
Pallets work very well. But getting them on and off becomes difficult without a gantry. While the ratings might work, I always get nervouse about using a hydraulic jack engine hoist to move stuff that matters. Especially if it is a heavy load.
Skates work well under a pallet with the machine bolted down. But get far to tippy under just the machine base.
Pipes and bars work well. Depending on the floor finish, distance, and grade a couple ugly broken guys might be able to push without even using pipes.
Another option is to beef up the ceiling joints and some vertical supports then lift it high enough to slide a pallet underneath. Then lift again for skates. Then onto a trailer. Note the sling and cautionary notes (http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2109/16545.pdf).

We need to consider the driveway grade and surface for both loading and unloading. As going up is relatively easy it's the controlled decent which becomes problematic.

Hoping to preplan several options. Come prepared to do any/all of them and then improvise. With the priority that everyone goes home at end of day with all their body parts intact and functioning. And the machine upright!

Like mill and lathe set-up, planning the move takes much longer than doing it.
My opinion...

John TV, do you have 3phase?
If not what is your electrical plan?

Daryl
MN
 
Uglydog said:
AVN12 should weigh in at 1650#net (http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2109/3402.pdf) without motor.
Assuming no stairs a drop deck or tilt trailer work very nicely.
However, there are other options. Renting a fork gets expensive. Fortunatly the VN12 isn't as heavy as the VN24!
Pallets work very well. But getting them on and off becomes difficult without a gantry. While the ratings might work, I always get nervouse about using a hydraulic jack engine hoist to move stuff that matters. Especially if it is a heavy load.
Skates work well under a pallet with the machine bolted down. But get far to tippy under just the machine base.
Pipes and bars work well. Depending on the floor finish, distance, and grade a couple ugly broken guys might be able to push without even using pipes.
Another option is to beef up the ceiling joints and some vertical supports then lift it high enough to slide a pallet underneath. Then lift again for skates. Then onto a trailer. Note the sling and cautionary notes (http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2109/16545.pdf).

We need to consider the driveway grade and surface for both loading and unloading. As going up is relatively easy it's the controlled decent which becomes problematic.

Hoping to preplan several options. Come prepared to do any/all of them and then improvise. With the priority that everyone goes home at end of day with all their body parts intact and functioning. And the machine upright!

Like mill and lathe set-up, planning the move takes much longer than doing it.
My opinion...

John TV, do you have 3phase?
If not what is your electrical plan?

Daryl
MN
Click to expand...

Thank you for your thoughts. A lot is up in the air yet since I have not seen the mill or it's location regarding grade or road surface etc. I will know much more in a week or two when my friend gets back from traveling and I can see the mill and complete the transaction. I will get pictures then to help clarify.

Regarding 3 phase. The owner said he would help with that too but as of now I have 220 wired at 30 amps. The service panel is in the garage/shop so if I need to wire another circuit or two it should not be a problem.

I have just started studying 3 phase and wondering your thoughts on vfd vs rotary converter when used on old motors. One site I was looking at for rotary type stated that with motors from the 1940s you need to jump up a size or two larger than typically needed. I'm not sure I understand why that would be the case but still learning of course.

Your thoughts on having more than one strategy to move this is excellent advice. Need to find my thinking cap. And my muscle shirt!


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With an RPC, generally manufacturers advise doubling the size of the RPC to overcome impedeance at startup. So a 5HP motor requires a 10HP RPC. So require the extra HP to spin into action.

Also, old motors aren’t built for VFD loading. Apparently VFDs generate more heat and can damage or burn out the earlier day wirings.

Because of the above, In lieu of buying VFD’s, I decided to install a10 hp Rotary PC from American Rotary to power two lathes and a mill. Overall, very happy with it. The RPC output goes through a separate panel, with one breaker for each circuit. Since then, I wired a couple of extra 3P outlets around the shop as I keep buying 3P equipment. You can retrofit an RPC and 3P wiring pretty easily on the exterior of walls using conduit. Don’t have to open up Sheetrock to install the wiring, and as this power comes off a separate motor (in the RPC itself) the wiring doesn’t require an electrical permit or inspection, etc. (it’s treated in the code like sort of a very sophisticated Power cord).

Glenn
 
I get electrical done.
But I will leave it to those who actually know stuff to provide recommendations.
I just wanted to ensure that you've started thinking about the other additional factors.

Daryl
MN
 
I like to build a 4x4 pallet under a machine, bolt the machine to the pallet and use a pallet jack to move the machine. Hydraulic lowering trailers are the way to go because everything can be kept level. Pallet jacks are perfectly safe for moving a top-heavy mill that's bolted to a pallet as long as you stay on a level surface. You keep the jack as low as possible, with the pallet almost dragging the floor. If anything starts to go wonky, you just pull the release and set the load on the floor. If you keep the pallet low, the machine can't tip far enough to go over center, plus you've increase the footprint of the base significantly, so that a much larger tip angle is required to get the machine to tip. Go slow, don't let things start to rock.

A proper rigger's bar makes it pretty easy to lift the machine up enough to build a pallet underneath.

Lots of people are using VFDs with Van Norman mills. But remember that you'll need two VFDs: one for the spindle motor and one for the feed motor. The problem with VFDs is that they have a lot of high-voltage switching transients which may be more than old motor's insulation can handle. An AC line reactor will take out the transients and protect the motor: link

But if there are any more 3-phase tools in your future, a rotary phase converter is the way to go. You can buy a panel or panel kit from WNY Supply and pick up a used 3-phase motor locally; they usually go for about $10 per HP.
 
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