Need info on a good oxy/acteylene set up for brazing

Authoritative info here on Acetylene vs Propane from a bicycle frame maker in Ukraine. This guy really lays the info down. He reccos a Uniweld 71 Airline torch handle for it's small size and accessible mixture knobs on top. Sounds just right for the small work I tend to do.

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/acetylene-vs-propane-30480.html?highlight=Propane
Actually he's from Niles Michigan. Guy by the name of Doug Fattic, a very good guy to know. He used to go to Ukraine for part of each year to help them get set up to build bike frames. I don't think he's been there lately, because of the war. The shop they set up, where he used to teach, is in Bucha, a town over-run by the Russians, then liberated by the Ukrainians. The Russkis did break in and steal a bunch of tools, but luckily not the bike frame specific ones like the tacking jig.

Sorry this is all off-topic, but if you search for Fattic you'll get a lot of info on brazing with propane. He's also a big proponent of using cast-off medical O2 concentrators instead of bottled O2. Other than the little electricity they use, it's an endless supply of free O2. Unless you're brazing with some really big flames, the typical 5 liter per minute (5 l/m) concentrators keep up just fine for brazing. There are also 10 l/m concentrators, but way expensive. When they do come up on CL (rarely) they're 4-5x as expensive as the 5 l/m ones. You can gang two or more concentrators up in parallel to get more O2 output if needed, cheaper than buying one 10 l/m.
 
Stainless gets an oxide film that interferes with braze strength. To some extent the chemical action of the flux can dissolve the oxides, but you want to minimize the amount of work for your flux to do. So starting with freshly cleaned stainless will give better results.

I'm not an expert, just a long-time (~50 years) practitioner. I don't know how fast the oxides form on SS at room temp. But I think letting them sit overnight might be getting into sub-optimal territory, so I would scuff up the SS right before brazing, with some abrasive cloth ("shop roll"), or scotchbrite.

I think your assessment here is spot on. Stainless steel develops a "passive film", which is an oxide skin, some hours after cleaning. In industry, stainless steel parts are sent out for "passivating" to force this film to develop in a controlled fashion, so corrosion doesn't take hold. Anyway, scuffing the surface, and degreasing, right before brazing, is best practice for sure.
 
Last edited:
The Russkis did break in and steal a bunch of tools, but luckily not the bike frame specific ones like the tacking jig.

You gotta know someone who works in the shop to have that kinda info huh?
 
I think your assessment here is spot on. Stainless steel develops a "passive film", which is an oxide skin, some hours after cleaning. In industry, stainless steel parts are sent out for "passivating" to force this film to develop in a controlled fashion, so corrosion doesn't take hold. Anyway, scuffing the surface, and degreasing, right before brazing, is best practice for sure.
Right on - scuff and wipe, it gets bad overnight.
 
@helmbelly wrote "You gotta know someone who works in the shop to have that kinda info huh?"

I've been somewhat acquainted with Doug Fattic for many years. He and I were both custom bike frame builders. He started in the early-'70s, I started in the late '70s. He transitioned into teaching, which was his first career before the bike biz. He's been teaching framebuilding for decades now.

I don't think the intel on the Bucha shop was from private convo with him though, I think I picked that up from his writings in various forums. It's public information. There's a GoFundMe for contributing to rebuilding the bike-building school in Bucha, let me know if there's any interest and I'll look it up. It's not a business for Doug, it's a calling. Tho Ukraine has bigger problems than rebuilding a bike school at the moment.
 
Cool info thx. I picked up a 71 airline torch based on his bell clear postings. You can tell he's the man, makes complex things more clear not more complex
 
Stainless gets an oxide film that interferes with braze strength. To some extent the chemical action of the flux can dissolve the oxides, but you want to minimize the amount of work for your flux to do. So starting with freshly cleaned stainless will give better results.

I'm not an expert, just a long-time (~50 years) practitioner. I don't know how fast the oxides form on SS at room temp. But I think letting them sit overnight might be getting into sub-optimal territory, so I would scuff up the SS right before brazing, with some abrasive cloth ("shop roll"), or scotchbrite. Abrasives can leave residue, so an acetone wipe after the abrasive scuffing is probably worth it. My fastidious prep for SS for brazing might be overkill, but I do get gorgeous braze joints on SS with perfect penetration and little to no burnt flux.

As to gases and tips: I used acetylene for 10+ years before switching to propane. I still have an acetylene bottle in the shop but it seldom gets used. Other than gas-welding, nothing I do needs acetylene, and I like propane just fine. For O2, I use an oxygen concentrator, the medical kind. Got mine used off Craig's for $150. With a concentrator, I don't have to refill O2 tanks ever again, and with propane in 20 lb bottles (gas-grill style), I never have to go to the welding-gas supply store anymore. Obviously 20 lb bottles wouldn't last long in a factory, but I am a retired hobbyist. Keeping several propane bottles around is cheap enough, and swapping in a new one when one runs dry is pretty quick..

I use the same torches for both O-A and O-P, but propane-specific tips keep the flame from detaching and blowing out, a common problem when using acetylene tips for propane. The tips I like best are made by Paige Tools in Seattle. They have a ring of small flames surrounding the main center flame, which makes the flame very stable and concentrated. It's not like a rosebud (tho Paige does make true rosebuds as well); the tips I'm talking about make a flame shape similar to a single-orifice O-A flame. Good pinpoint heat control.

A quick'n'dirty method for getting a propane flame to stay sttached with an acetylene tip is to counterbore the orifice. Hard to do precisely by hand, better if you have a lathe. Somewhere on the web they'll tell you the diameter and depth to counterbore them to, but I just did them by eye, bore about 4x the orifice size, and about that deep as well. Doesn't seem to be too sensitive to bore diam and depth. I call it counterboring, but I just used a regular twist drill, doesn't need a flat bottom. I think you can buy tips that have this done to them already, but if you're going to buy tips, just get the Paige tips, they're godlike.
The 2 piece propane tips are relatively inexpensive and I have never burnt one up.
 
Disaster. Put the Acetylene regulator to 6lb pressure, Oxy to 10lb, cracked the Acet open and lit right up. Turned it up, in hindsight prob not enough, prob was scared of the flame anyway added some Oxy and it blew right out.
Tried again, blew right out. Not sure why or how bu then the whole Oxy tank blew out - REAL loud kinda 'i need a drink' scary as hell sudden decompression. I reached down fast to crank the tank shut but it was already empty. WTF.

So said screw it and lit my little blue propane bottle and got the part dull red but the solder would not melt (even tho the tip of the 1/16 silver was red too. Oh brother- I'd forgot to put the paste flux on the part. Grabbed another part and fluxed it up, got it dull red, the silver tip red, nothing would melt - no solder would run. Moved the flame away tried to hold it all in the dull red zone and to get it to run- didn't come close. Put the crap down and went to the liquor store.
 
Disaster. Put the Acetylene regulator to 6lb pressure, Oxy to 10lb, cracked the Acet open and lit right up. Turned it up, in hindsight prob not enough, prob was scared of the flame anyway added some Oxy and it blew right out.
Tried again, blew right out. Not sure why or how bu then the whole Oxy tank blew out - REAL loud kinda 'i need a drink' scary as hell sudden decompression. I reached down fast to crank the tank shut but it was already empty. WTF.

So said screw it and lit my little blue propane bottle and got the part dull red but the solder would not melt (even tho the tip of the 1/16 silver was red too. Oh brother- I'd forgot to put the paste flux on the part. Grabbed another part and fluxed it up, got it dull red, the silver tip red, nothing would melt - no solder would run. Moved the flame away tried to hold it all in the dull red zone and to get it to run- didn't come close. Put the crap down and went to the liquor store.
Some days it’s just not worth chewing through the leather straps.....
 
Disaster. Put the Acetylene regulator to 6lb pressure, Oxy to 10lb, cracked the Acet open and lit right up. Turned it up, in hindsight prob not enough, prob was scared of the flame anyway added some Oxy and it blew right out.
Tried again, blew right out. Not sure why or how bu then the whole Oxy tank blew out - REAL loud kinda 'i need a drink' scary as hell sudden decompression. I reached down fast to crank the tank shut but it was already empty. WTF.

So said screw it and lit my little blue propane bottle and got the part dull red but the solder would not melt (even tho the tip of the 1/16 silver was red too. Oh brother- I'd forgot to put the paste flux on the part. Grabbed another part and fluxed it up, got it dull red, the silver tip red, nothing would melt - no solder would run. Moved the flame away tried to hold it all in the dull red zone and to get it to run- didn't come close. Put the crap down and went to the liquor store.
You got the little tanks, right?
 
Back
Top