New shop! (was: Multiple buildings, ...)

[rabler]

Always appreciate warnings on possible issues. But, that is a really ****ty ELT (emergency locator transmitter). ELT’s are activated by high-Gs (like a rough landing). This is a bit suspicious, I would want to see a replication of the triggering to believe it. ELTs are usually mounted high in the tail but can be manually reset. Any aircraft radio will receive 121.5MHz that they broadcast, so easy to test. There is no receive electronics, it is a transmitter only. LEDs themselves are DC, the problem source would be the high frequency from a poorly designed switching power supply. If you buy bottom dollar fixture (not UL approved), I could believe you could have an issue, but … fishy.

(from someone who is a former college flying club maintenance coordinator, former plane owner, and Former flight instructor)

Flourescent lighting involves high voltages for starting, and a discharge Arc through the tube, definitely a source of RF interference. Problems from them are not surprising.

I have an oscilloscope, so easy to hang a wire off it and check for RFI.

I have been reading a lot about LED lighting effecting electronics. One story was actually from a friend of mine who has his own hanger and plane. He said his emergency locator (not sure of the actual name) in the plane kept going off and alert Search and Rescue. Got to the point that he knew the dispatchers by first name. His club had a get together and a tech was there from I think another locator mfg. Got to discussing the issue, since the locators cannot be switched off seem the LED lights in his home hanger were activating it. They determined that they had to add more shielding and move the antenna farther from the unit.

Not sure if it would have any affect on your electronic equipment or systems, I only mention this as you have indicated that you do electronics.

For me and my competition shooting, my Sartorius lab grade scale is affected by just about everything including slight breeze (or breathing), vibration, looking at it wrong, cell phones and fluorescent lighting. The phone and lighting can cause it to wonder. When you are measuring powder down to the hundredths of a grain (a single kernel is about 0.020+- Grains), having it wonder as much as 0.5 grains is a big deal. Also, since I am loading very close to the max, don't want to over charge.

Seems like there is a cause and affect for everything.

Rambling again.

 

[ahazi]

General lighting plan is to use fourteen 8’LED tubes which can be ganged end to end up to three. They are rated for 8000 lumens each, color selectable for 3000, 4000, or 5000k. 80 watts per fixture, or 1120 watts total, on a dedicated 15 amp circuit. Or 50 lumens per sq ft. I’m doing three rows parallel to the long axis of the building. The center row is on one switch group. The outside rows on the front side are on another switch group, and the outside rows for the back are on a third group. Each group is switchable via 3/4 way switches from the front door, back door or office door.

I’m also planning on a lighting circuit for the back bench (lower left) on the 7’ shelf, to eliminate shadows and provide brighter light there.
I haven’t worked out the exact setup for office lighting but probably three 4’ LED tubes at about 12000 lumens total.

I had a similar lighting need few years ago. My original plan was to use use 5000K, 48" LED tubes in 4 way fixtures. I ended up using these type of fixtures:

LED Linear High Bay, 110 Watts 13,750 Lumens, 35K/40K/50K 120-277V

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I am very happy I did as they have built in dimmer with a 0-10v control. Now I can put just as much light as needed and it gives me the option for full light intensity when needed. It saves some power and probably extends the life of the fixtures by not pushing it to the max.

I also found that you absolutely need good task light without shadows where you do detail work. These are much easier to do and there is no need for a dimmer.

Ariel

 

[woodchucker]

My Model Plane club meets in one of the members hangers at the airport. He has all new LED lighting because he is rebuilding a Citabria. His other plane is there and no problems... If it does happen, I think it is a rare event.

My opinion, 5000k too blue for me, it wierds out my eyes... I have had both lenses replaced with cataract surgery, so not sure if that makes it worse, my wife doesn't like the 5000k either. 4000k is nice and clear to both of us. It's great when they are selectable.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Always appreciate warnings on possible issues. But, that is a really ****ty ELT (emergency locator transmitter). ELT’s are activated by high-Gs (like a rough landing). This is a bit suspicious, I would want to see a replication of the triggering to believe it. ELTs are usually mounted high in the tail but can be manually reset. Any aircraft radio will receive 121.5MHz that they broadcast, so easy to test. There is no receive electronics, it is a transmitter only. LEDs themselves are DC, the problem source would be the high frequency from a poorly designed switching power supply. If you buy bottom dollar fixture (not UL approved), I could believe you could have an issue, but … fishy.

(from someone who is a former college flying club maintenance coordinator, former plane owner, and Former flight instructor)

Flourescent lighting involves high voltages for starting, and a discharge Arc through the tube, definitely a source of RF interference. Problems from them are not surprising.

I have an oscilloscope, so easy to hang a wire off it and check for RFI.

Actually there were several others and the tech that had experienced this, which is how they knew how to address it. Now to go along with what you are saying about equipment. All the ELT's (thanks for the correct nomenclature) were from the same mfg and apparently the mfg was of no help in troubleshooting the problem.

 

[rabler]

My Model Plane club meets in one of the members hangers at the airport. He has all new LED lighting because he is rebuilding a Citabria. His other plane is there and no problems... If it does happen, I think it is a rare event.

My opinion, 5000k too blue for me, it wierds out my eyes... I have had both lenses replaced with cataract surgery, so not sure if that makes it worse, my wife doesn't like the 5000k either. 4000k is nice and clear to both of us. It's great when they are selectable.

The ones I have are 3/4/5k selectable. I have set them to 4000 when I installed them, as I agree that 5k is harsh/blue. Oddly they are also 4/6/8,000 lumen selectable. I can’t see buying them and then setting for reduced output in a shop/garage setting and they are not styled for interior home use.

I’ll do something dimmable in the office. The shop proper I can always just turn off the outer two banks which would leave about 14 lumens/sq ft.

 

[rabler]

Actually there were several others and the tech that had experienced this, which is how they knew how to address it. Now to go along with what you are saying about equipment. All the ELT's (thanks for the correct nomenclature) were from the same mfg and apparently the mfg was of no help in troubleshooting the problem.

That would suggest they are using an electromechanical sensor that is based on a strain gauge, which requires very high gain and is typically handled with a bridge circuit. It also means they did a really poor design of such a circuit as there is no reason it couldn’t be RF shielded. ELTs are typically mounted in the top of the tail. Obviously the tail being close to LEDs is not helpful, but that is a location that is frequently also used for antenna mounting. I’d be reporting that manufacturer to the FAA as an ELT that falsely triggers is no joke. Coast guard and Civil Air Patrol get really irate. Fortunately ATC knows to rule out on-airport aircraft as the most common cause of false alarms is rough landings.

Many of the cheap chinese 48” LED strip lights sold through Amazon are not UL listed, so I would suspect that also is a factor.

 

[Papa Charlie]

That would suggest they are using an electromechanical sensor that is based on a strain gauge, which requires very high gain and is typically handled with a bridge circuit. It also means they did a really poor design of such a circuit as there is no reason it couldn’t be RF shielded. ELTs are typically mounted in the top of the tail. Obviously the tail being close to LEDs is not helpful, but that is a location that is frequently also used for antenna mounting. I’d be reporting that manufacturer to the FAA as an ELT that falsely triggers is no joke. Coast guard and Civil Air Patrol get really irate. Fortunately ATC knows to rule out on-airport aircraft as the most common cause of false alarms is rough landings.

Many of the cheap chinese 48” LED strip lights sold through Amazon are not UL listed, so I would suspect that also is a factor.

Your last statement regarding the chinese stuff is what worries me with regards to using them.

I changed over all the lights on my boat to LED. Huge reduction in battery drain for a 45 footer. But some lights while they were bright when I installed them have in a couple of years dimmed. These are of course 12VDC lights, but if this is representative of the quality of chinese LED's, I would hate to install them in my shop to only have to replace them in a couple of years because they are fading out on me.
The other issue is to ensure that the lighting we buy is actually using non chinese LED's in the manufacture. So many products are tied to these inexpensive sources, despite being USA made. It isn't the 51% of US cost in the product that bothers me, it is the other 49%.

 

[rabler]

Your last statement regarding the chinese stuff is what worries me with regards to using them.

I changed over all the lights on my boat to LED. Huge reduction in battery drain for a 45 footer. But some lights while they were bright when I installed them have in a couple of years dimmed. These are of course 12VDC lights, but if this is representative of the quality of chinese LED's, I would hate to install them in my shop to only have to replace them in a couple of years because they are fading out on me.
The other issue is to ensure that the lighting we buy is actually using non chinese LED's in the manufacture. So many products are tied to these inexpensive sources, despite being USA made. It isn't the 51% of US cost in the product that bothers me, it is the other 49%.

One solution is to get the T8 bulb fixtures, at least you can swap bulbs tubes. But pricier…

 

[WobblyHand]

This dimming seems to be inherent, especially if the LEDs are driven hard. Had a few Cree bulbs go dim on me, and quite a few ones sourced from you know where. Had one in a bedroom get to 1/3 brightness. Thought I was going blind. Nope, just LEDs fading into the night.

Kind of the 2nd version of the bulb cartel fiasco, in my opinion. After all, if you make a lifetime bulb, soon no one will need to buy any more! So let's make LEDs that die... Same as making short incandescent lifetimes.

 

[woodchucker]

This dimming seems to be inherent, especially if the LEDs are driven hard. Had a few Cree bulbs go dim on me, and quite a few ones sourced from you know where. Had one in a bedroom get to 1/3 brightness. Thought I was going blind. Nope, just LEDs fading into the night.

Kind of the 2nd version of the bulb cartel fiasco, in my opinion. After all, if you make a lifetime bulb, soon no one will need to buy any more! So let's make LEDs that die... Same as making short incandescent lifetimes.

In Dubai they make bulbs that have extra leds, and are not overdriven. They are not allowed to be sold here. I think that's fantastic how that is.

The cost to run the LED's is much less, no doubt. But the longevity is quite questionable. When I did my bathroom over, I went to the wafers. We'll see how they do. I like them so far.