Is there a dedicated thread where techniques can be uploaded for beginners, without breaking self promotion rules?

[mickri]

We already have a beginner's forum for this purpose. Parlo's asking about a thread. I think that over time the thread would get so long that it would be hard to find stuff. Look at Mikey's absolutely awesome thread on grinding HSS tool bits as an example. Whenever I have a tool bit grinding question I go to that thread first before searching or asking. Think of how unwieldy that thread might be like if it contained everything under the sun related to machining instead of just grinding tool bits.

Maybe entitle the forum "This is how I do it" as a sub forum in the beginner's forum and then let the poster start a thread on how he does some task in his or her shop.

 

[Parlo]

AFAIK, the 'self promotion rules' are intended to prevent commercial entities from randomly promoting their wares. Commercial entities, related to the hobby, can join as Commercial Members and can get a dedicated forum in the Sponsored Forums section.

Is your question in reference to promoting the sale of good or services, or does your 'self promotion' refer to your particular technique of creating a feature(s)?

Can you reply with an explanation of what you mean by 'self promotion'? I suspect that the confusion is a result of American English vs British English interpretations.

A thread or forum where videos demonstrating traditional and proven techniques that have served machinists well over their long careers can be uploaded. I totally agree that any promotion leading to financial gain should not be allowed on this forum. If there is no personal gain or distinction then the tips will be an honest attempt to simply share their knowledge.

The problem with youtube and the patreon setup is that content is uploaded that is not checked so anyone can upload machining videos. In turn this has led to a gravy train of plagarized content very often uploaded by unqualified people who clearly haven't been formally trained. Engineering is a dangerous trade and these videos are watched by beginners who can copy these dubious methods. Whenever protracted, dangerous or just plain wrong content is highlighted, the commments are removed to preserve the likes and subscriber count, not forgetting the revenue stream.

So, in an ideal situation could an honest thread or forum be started which is overseen by us all, where enhancements to posts would be welcomed and dubious content highlighted and possibly removed?

The motive for contributing must be very clear.
No personal names.
No company names.
No fees from youtube - patreon or product promotion.

Old school toolmakers benefitted from our peers sharing their knowledge freely, that is how the system worked and was actively encouraged. I think this traditional principle should be encouraged again with this proposal creating a totally altruistic reference library.

To keep the standard of the posts high and to respect the sacrifices formally apprenticed machinists endured, I suggest that only time served tradespeople can contribute.

I understand that there are lots of techniques already uploaded that would be great on this proposed thread but the uploaders of this content may be monetizing their channel. If you are serious about freely sharing your work without any promotion or financial gain, to post here you could start a "free" channel and upload them from that. It's all about the motive to share.

Thanks for listening.

 

[extropic]

@Parlo
I think I understand what you're suggesting.
I'm a Staff member on H-M but I'm not the final word on your suggestion.
Regardless, following are my thoughts on it.

I think the crux of is here:
"So, in an ideal situation could an honest thread or forum be started which is overseen by us all, where enhancements to posts would be welcomed and dubious content highlighted and possibly removed?"
"To keep the standard of the posts high and to respect the sacrifices formally apprenticed machinists endured, I suggest that only time served tradespeople can contribute."

I'm not clear by the meaning of "overseen" and who is "us all"? Please elucidate.

In short, I think you're asking for a thread or sub-forum where everybody can view the content but only specific members (authorized by you?) can contribute content.
The Admins will have to weigh in on whether or not the software supports that. To continue the discussion, lets assume the concept can be implemented.
The idea of removing dubious content is, IMO, a ball of snakes that should be avoided.
After all, this is the internet. It's up to the viewer to decide what content is valuable to them.

Alternatively, please comment on why you don't simply do what the other contributors do by creating a thread (in either the Projects Area or in this forum) which shows what you're trying to teach. I acknowledge that such a thread can become cluttered with congratulatory, alternative or off topic replies. Is it that clutter that you are specifically trying to avoid? I suppose a thread could be locked, at the request of the author, to prevent the common clutter/drift.

IMO, members, who post their projects, develop a reputation as to the characteristics of their techniques and output. Good, bad or indifferent.
For that matter, each of our posts (comment, project, purchase, whatever) serves as a data point in creating our individual credibility and reputation on H-M. You've been a member for ten months and I expect you have developed opinions about some members activities. If you post your tutorials, regardless of using the normal manor or a special forum, each viewer will decide what is valuable or not.

I would welcome input from the Admins and other Moderators.

I'm tired, Goodnight.

 

[Parlo]

@Parlo
I think I understand what you're suggesting.
I'm a Staff member on H-M but I'm not the final word on your suggestion.
Regardless, following are my thoughts on it.

I think the crux of is here:
"So, in an ideal situation could an honest thread or forum be started which is overseen by us all, where enhancements to posts would be welcomed and dubious content highlighted and possibly removed?"
"To keep the standard of the posts high and to respect the sacrifices formally apprenticed machinists endured, I suggest that only time served tradespeople can contribute."

I'm not clear by the meaning of "overseen" and who is "us all"? Please elucidate.

In short, I think you're asking for a thread or sub-forum where everybody can view the content but only specific members (authorized by you?) can contribute content.
The Admins will have to weigh in on whether or not the software supports that. To continue the discussion, lets assume the concept can be implemented.
The idea of removing dubious content is, IMO, a ball of snakes that should be avoided.
After all, this is the internet. It's up to the viewer to decide what content is valuable to them.

Alternatively, please comment on why you don't simply do what the other contributors do by creating a thread (in either the Projects Area or in this forum) which shows what you're trying to teach. I acknowledge that such a thread can become cluttered with congratulatory, alternative or off topic replies. Is it that clutter that you are specifically trying to avoid? I suppose a thread could be locked, at the request of the author, to prevent the common clutter/drift.

IMO, members, who post their projects, develop a reputation as to the characteristics of their techniques and output. Good, bad or indifferent.
For that matter, each of our posts (comment, project, purchase, whatever) serves as a data point in creating our individual credibility and reputation on H-M. You've been a member for ten months and I expect you have developed opinions about some members activities. If you post your tutorials, regardless of using the normal manor or a special forum, each viewer will decide what is valuable or not.

I would welcome input from the Admins and other Moderators.

I'm tired, Goodnight.

I'm not clear by the meaning of "overseen" and who is "us all"? Please elucidate.
I meant that members of this forum have the ability to comment on bad practices and poor techniques without having their comments removed by the original poster. This priveledge is not available on youtube so the content here can be freely held to account if found to be of poor value.

In short, I think you're asking for a thread or sub-forum where everybody can view the content but only specific members (authorized by you?) can contribute content.
Just a place where only qualified tradesmen can post their experiences in a trusted place that is being overseen by all members for the common good. No specific topics, just things they have found useful, hopefully not well documented or obvious content.
The Admins will have to weigh in on whether or not the software supports that. To continue the discussion, lets assume the concept can be implemented.
The idea of removing dubious content is, IMO, a ball of snakes that should be avoided.
Fortunately the Engineering trade has a long history of first principles so any incorrect content can easily be verified & removed if misleading - protracted - unsafe, or just incorrect. Knowingly leaving incorrect content on the forum should be discouraged, beginners could use it with unfortunate results. I assumed that was one of the roles of the moderators.
After all, this is the internet. It's up to the viewer to decide what content is valuable to them.
I hope that with some measures in place, the content available is verified and removes the option of choosing knowingly incorrect material. The choice can then be between different valid techniques.

Alternatively, please comment on why you don't simply do what the other contributors do by creating a thread (in either the Projects Area or in this forum) which shows what you're trying to teach. I acknowledge that such a thread can become cluttered with congratulatory, alternative or off topic replies. Is it that clutter that you are specifically trying to avoid? I suppose a thread could be locked, at the request of the author, to prevent the common clutter/drift.
I assume that if I post loads of random techniques that I have found valuable it looks exactly like self promotion.

IMO, members, who post their projects, develop a reputation as to the characteristics of their techniques and output. Good, bad or indifferent.
For that matter, each of our posts (comment, project, purchase, whatever) serves as a data point in creating our individual credibility and reputation on H-M. You've been a member for ten months and I expect you have developed opinions about some members activities. If you post your tutorials, regardless of using the normal manor or a special forum, each viewer will decide what is valuable or not.
My content is predominately unique techniques that still conform to first principles. As you state, output that is "Good, bad or indifferent" is being posted, I was hoping for a place where only good is posted. With the restrictions I suggest applied then questions from beginners can be directed at qualified tradesmen and their replies overseen by their peers.

 

[Liljoebrshooter]

Almost every technique for operating a machine is available already on the internet. They may be highly trained or not but that is for me to decide whether to watch or not.
You may think that a certain individual shows the absolute best way to get the same finished product and I might think otherwise. There are a few u tube stars that I cannot stand to watch while others say they have the best videos.
Joe

 

[pdentrem]

My 2 cents.
I remember when this forum was first launched and the issue was where to put what came up multiple times. The solution was no solution. Everybody had their idea of where to put what.
Currently the forum has loads of information all over the place, sometimes it is a whole process from start to finish and other times just tips and suggestions. There is no way to be able to corral everything for a particular topic in one place without a staff that has to approve and moves posts around with the attendant hurt feelings. Some members will post their technics in the relevant topic so the OP can see it right away, while if placed in a collection it can get lost. Been there.
In the end a google search with keywords will yield most if not all one is looking for, and the larger the site the more information one has to wade through to get the answer that works for them in any case.
There is no win win.

 

[RJSakowski]

My 2¢

There is a lot of useful content on the HM forum. The problem is finding it. Many times when I am responding to a thread, I search for something that I posted in the past. Even limiting the search to my postings can be daunting. A system of standardized keywords can be helpful in that regard. There is much content that is embedded in threads of sometimes a different topic so searching on thread titles isn't that effective a tool. A search engine that used fuzzy logic would be an improvement.

I learned what I know to a large extent by trial and error. When I got my first lathe, my bible was the South Bend "How to Run a Lathe". In the modern world, it is much easier. There is a tremendous amount of information on the net. Some bad and some good. Perhaps an index of keywords with links to certain sites or in the case of HM, to threads and/or posts would work. The keywords could include a "see also"feature and a peer review of links with thumbs up/thumbs numbers down similar to that used of posts now.

As to the suggestion that content contributors be limited to those members who are "qualified tradesmen". I have run into comment by old timers and qualified tradesmen who at times present misinformation. One has to remember that machining practices were largely developed by learning from old timers who in turn, learned their craft from other old timers. There is one in particular that is a popular You Tube presenter that has presented enough misinformation that I will always question his presentation before accepting it. This can really be a problem for a beginner.

What works on a large industrial machine isn't necessarily true for a small hobby class machine. Parting on a lathe is a good example. If you have the rigidity and hp, you can plunge in aggressively with good results. On a small machine, you will stall the motor and possibly break the parting tool or tool holder. Another example is feeds and speeds. They are generally set up for larger machines and often not attainable on small machines. There is a lot of useful information being presented by non professionals that would be lost if they were excluded.

 

[extropic]

@Parlo

First, I want to say that you started an excellent, and valuable conversation.

I'm going to reply to a few of the phrases and words that you've used above. My intent is to clarify why I'm having trouble understanding how to converge on what you really want.

Qualified Tradesmen: H-M doesn't have a qualification certification that I'm aware of. I doubt that H-M is ready to establish one. So, the question is, who/how certifies "Qualified". I tried to address the issue with my previous comments about developing a reputation on H-M. Your posted content will be evaluated by each viewer and each viewer will determine the value to the viewer.

Measures In Place to Verify Content: I think that idea is contrary to the nature of the net in general. I don't see how H-M could implement it and I don't think it's necessary. There's an old adage that goes something like: I have developed my excellent judgement and skills through the consequences of my poor judgement and skills. Each member if free to use his/her judgement to choose techniques that fit his/her skills and other resources.

Obvious: IMO, obvious is a useless concept between strangers. The same with common sense. Those concepts are only useful between persons who are expected to be equivalently familiar with the subject/environment. H-M members have an extremely wide spectrum of knowledge and experience in the hobby/trade. What may be obvious (or common sense) to one, may be unknown to another.

Removing Incorrect Content: H-M has a rule against removing content. AFAIK, staff only does it in the case of content violating a rule(s). As has been said above, what works (is correct) for one may not work (is incorrect) for another. It's not clear how unsafe something would have to be before a majority of members would vote to remove it. What we (H-M members) do is reply with friendly and non denigrating comments to point out perceived problems and safety hazards and suggest alternatives.

Self Promotion: I think you are understanding that term to mean conceit, boasting, bragging and the like. That's not what H-M means. In the H-M rules, self promotion is in reference to commercial activity such as 'Buy my design', 'Buy my tool', 'Buy my machine', etc. You are free to boast, brag and think as highly of yourself as your reputation can stand. LOL

My content is predominately unique techniques that still conform to first principles. As you state, output that is "Good, bad or indifferent" is being posted, I was hoping for a place where only good is posted. With the restrictions I suggest applied then questions from beginners can be directed at qualified tradesmen and their replies overseen by their peers.

OK, I think I'm getting a grip on what you're talking about. You're describing a forum where only "Qualified Tradesmen" are the judges of what is a good technique vs what is bad or incorrect technique. The judges would have the authority to cull any "bad or incorrect" content posted by the unqualified. Is that it?

Obviously, someone would have to be appointed the TSAR of Qualified Tradesmen to check credentials and be the top authority determining correct vs incorrect. The forum would have to have a set of rules regarding the removal of content determined to be incorrect (or even off topic and common clutter?). There would have to be a Staff of Qualified Tradesmen to moderate the forum because only they can tell correct from incorrect.

As I understand it, it's beginning to seem a non-trivial effort to implement. I'm hoping to hear from other Staff members here.


Alternatively, I suggest you keep on posting replies where you think you can help and have a clear intention to do so. Reply to warn against what you think to be unsafe or to comment on the incorrect. Simply disregard what you consider to be off topic or clutter.

 

[Liljoebrshooter]

If you want qualified go on over to the PM forums. Just ask them
Joe

 

[matthewsx]

I like this forum and the way we interact with each other. Members can list their qualifications in their intro or any place that’s suits them.

Readers can judge the validity of methods and techniques by trying them out, or by asking other forum members.

The search function works pretty well but if you don’t want to be bothered you can post a question and get responses very quickly, often with multiple ways to do the same thing.

Any member can start whatever threads they want provided they don’t violate the rules.

The internet is vast and anyone can build their own website if they have a better idea than what’s out there.

Just my 2 cents.

John