Shapers, what happened?

[frugalguido]

I guess it’s the dinosaur in me, but I can’t imagine a purely electronic/hydraulic mechanism being as brutally efficient as a purely mechanical shaper. We’re the larger shapers like Cincinnati all hydraulic?

The all steel shaper was a combo with gears and a large screw for ram travel and used multi plate clutches controlled by hydraulics for direction and ram braking. The clutches switched between forward feed rate and super fast rate ram return. Cincinnati's claim that the shaper was high speed especially in ram return ( reducing the wasted time on the non cutting movement) Remember that at this time in history that milling machines were coming on strong and this was Cincinnati's last ditch effort to kept shapers up with them, but a little late as they say. I would think today from a non production view (hobbyist) that this could be done with modern servo motion control while reducing all that complex mechanics.

 

[RJSakowski]

You may want to retain a hydraulic ram to be able to generate eniugh force for the cut. Hydraulics can be controlled either manually or with an encoder and feedback.

 

[Aaron_W]

+1, all true. What’s interesting is how they do surface in often unexpected places and times. Often more than jus one.

There is nobody who’s middle of the road. Either you like the whole idea or just think it’s weird and obsolete. It does seem appropriate to make model engines with a shaper so they seem made for hobbyists. For me it was strictly a purchase of opportunity as it was so cheap but it also fits with my cheap ways as most of what I repurpose is rusty and corroded. I love the fact I can clean up this stuff up with just a regular HSS bit and don’t have buy special tooling.

And like the shaper I’m slow too.

Machining for production vs a small one person shop doing one offs or a hobbyist changes some perspectives on utility.

A production shop can justify the cost of special tooling or using up cutters with volume, just a small fraction of the cost added to each piece. Having employees who can do all the work on one machine (vertical mill) means less cross training and fewer machines sitting idle.

For a hobbyist or a small shop doing doing one off parts having a few tricks pony machine, like a shaper that can do similar work with inexpensive tooling makes a lot more sense.

Personally one of the things I've come to really enjoy with machining as a hobby is how many different ways there are to do something, and learning how the different machines do their thing.

 

[GeneT45]

I guess it’s the dinosaur in me, but I can’t imagine a purely electronic/hydraulic mechanism being as brutally efficient as a purely mechanical shaper. We’re the larger shapers like Cincinnati all hydraulic?

No, the earlier Cincis were all mechanical. My 1943 16" Heavy Duty (16" ram on the 24" body) uses a scotch yoke.

GsT

 

[Dabbler]

On the price front, the highest prices are being paid by people that aren't goting to use them, but want a conversation piece. (the other high priced buyer is those that are very new to the hobby) In both cases, expect to see those shapers trickle back into the market, as the novelty wears off. The price decline will be slow, but I expect in 10 years to return to reasonable prices (far too late for me)

 

[C-Bag]

Personally one of the things I've come to really enjoy with machining as a hobby is how many different ways there are to do something, and learning how the different machines do their thing.

This is one of the things I was not really aware of before diving down this rabbit hole. It is far more creative than I thought. Especially the setups I've been able to do with my little 7b. There are quite a few who seem to think these small shapers are worthless but when you are space constrained and monetarily constricted it opens up ways to do things that neither my lathe or mill can do.

One project that keeps rolling around in my head is devising a power downfeed. That would be super handy.

 

[C-Bag]

people that aren't goting to use them, but want a conversation piece

Really? I can't even fathom that so it would have never occurred to me.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Some random thoughts...
Recently on one of the tractor boards I frequent, a guy bought a hub for a hydraulic pump that the keyway had been machined to 1/4" instead of the requisite 5/16. He was at a loss as to what to do. One guy there who has a home machine shop and likes everyone to know it said, "Simple. Grab a broach and widen the keyway."
I thought sure, everybody has a set of broaches, and bushings and a press to cut a keyway.
I was tempted to say - but didn't, how simple a job it would have been to grind a tool and widen the keyway on your shaper.
But even on a 7" SB or Atlas it would have been a fun, cheap little project.
I had a 10" Dvorak shaper a few years ago but after owning it for a year or two decided I could live without it so I sold it at an auction and made some $ which I put into tooling I needed more.
The SB7 I'm working on now kinda fell into my lap last fall for a price I couldn't say no.
It needed some love but nothing serious.
I really don't need this one either but have the room and it is just so darned cute.
And the next time the topic of needing a keyway widened comes up on the tractor forum I'll just say, "Why spend a C note for a broach and bushing you'll never use again.
Bring the hub and a 6 pack over and I'll put it on the shaper for you. It'll make short work of it."

 

[Ultradog MN]

As to a shaper moving around on the floor:
It's Newtons 1st law about mass vs acceleration and the whole inertia thing - objects in motion or at rest etc.
It doesn't matter HOW you propel the ram forward and backwards it's gonna push the machine back and forth as well. The machine won't move as much as the ram because it has much greater mass. I had never heard of an aluminum ram on a shaper but it is actually a good idea. Aluminum = less mass which equals less inertia which means less shaper movement and energy used propelling it back and forth.
High school physics...

 

[frugalguido]

As to a shaper moving around on the floor:
It's Newtons 1st law about mass vs acceleration and the whole inertia thing - objects in motion or at rest etc.
It doesn't matter HOW you propel the ram forward and backwards it's gonna push the machine back and forth as well. The machine won't move as much as the ram because it has much greater mass. I had never heard of an aluminum ram on a shaper but it is actually a good idea. Aluminum = less mass which equals less inertia which means less shaper movement and energy used propelling it back and forth.
High school physics...

Interesting that you bought this up, the prototype Cinci, uses a triangular shaped ram made up with thin steel gusseted in the corners. I would assume to create less mass.